[Eli]

Oh it is not all bad. I mean it.
The airlines get a D because of lack of capacity,y well there are about to be a lot less flights so that one is out.
The roads are bad but there is about to be a lot less over the road trucking and people traveling thousands of miles for no good reason. And the Bridges are about to see a lot less wear and tear.
What we are going to see is a shift in infrastructure priority with rail and mass transit becoming a lot more reasonable than personal transport.
And we may see more distributed energy production that may help elevate the problems on the energy grid.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 't')hing is though, how many times do you read all these reports and they say 'unless something is done, there'll be disaster!', and then the projected year of disaster comes and goes, nothing happens, and the reports continue to say 'disaster ahead'! for ever more.
maybe the reports are simply written by folk who want more money ploughed into their industry? i'd be very surprised to see a report from a car manufacturer say 'Everything's great! We don't need any money for the roads!' - of COURSE they are going to ask for more and more money, and embellish the claims of impending doom etc.
infrastructure worldwide has laways been crappy as far as i can remember. hasn't the USA always had shocking road surfaces? i was in florida in 2000 and the roads were all cracked - it resembled a third world country in some areas, but its always been like that hasnt it? things still seem to get done.

[jeffvail]

On an optimistic note:

Denver recently (2004 election) passed the largest initiative-based light rail project ever. I've got my issues with it, but I think that it will ease any transition to some extent, especially as it is designed to provide a realistic commute alternative for those in the suburbs. Perhaps most telling, this is a case of SUV-happy Americans overwhelmingly agreeing to pay more taxes to invest in mass transit infrastructure.

fastracks webpage

Probably too little, too late, and it doesn't address the underlying issues, but...

[holmes]

WOW. SOS. Good post Monte. I think we are missing the point. The infrastructure is not an apocalyptic senario. It just is an example of even today with "cheap" energy we cant sustain the infrastructure. Do you think we are going to sustain any form "modern" infrastructure when there is no oil available? or alternative infrastructures in an exponentially based society? Ma Nature manages herself. Our "new" Ma Nature needs Massive amounts of oil or slave labor. Now that we have suspended all other forms of alternative living, where to now? But it really is telling how the empire is deteriorated. Also adding more bodies to the heap is not making anything easier or more solvable. Einstein new this. But its a fantasy believing we can just move on like nothing when cheap oil goes. In Planning we are running into ecological limits already. transportation is increasingly becoming more dependent on Gas taxes.
another intelligent post By Monte. I see the deterioration all the time. I Bike and walk 90% of the time.

[FatherOfTwo]

Let me start my post by saying I agree that the challenge to have a soft landing is monumental, and one of those components will involve maintaining and expanding some parts of the infrastructure.
As others have already replied but I’ll second, asking engineers if things need to be fixed is like asking politicians if they want you to contribute to their campaign fund. You know what the answer is going to be.
But I wish people would stop with the other more inflammatory statements, or at least modify the language of them. “The grid is going to fall apart”, the “infrastructure is breaking down” and “we can’t afford to fix it” statements. Maybe this will be undeniably true 50-100 years from now, but it certainly isn’t true now. We still have the capacity to make major changes right now, there just hasn’t been an impetus to do so… yet.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Existing transmission facilities were not designed for the current level of demand.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 't')hing is though, how many times do you read all these reports and they say 'unless something is done, there'll be disaster!', and then the projected year of disaster comes and goes, nothing happens, and the reports continue to say 'disaster ahead'! for ever more.
..........

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 'm')aybe the reports are simply written by folk who want more money ploughed into their industry? i'd be very surprised to see a report from a car manufacturer say 'Everything's great! We don't need any money for the roads!' - of COURSE they are going to ask for more and more money, and embellish the claims of impending doom etc.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', 'A')s others have already replied but I’ll second, asking engineers if things need to be fixed is like asking politicians if they want you to contribute to their campaign fund. You know what the answer is going to be.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', '
')As others have already replied but I’ll second, asking engineers if things need to be fixed is like asking politicians if they want you to contribute to their campaign fund. You know what the answer is going to be.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', ' ')I'm not dismissing it out of hand, so don't put words in my mouth. I was just questioning the source, which is a perfectly valid thing to do. Or do you never question the bias/motives of anyone?

[FatherOfTwo]

I did not read the whole report, however I did read the section on the power grid, because expanding the grid is (I think) one way to help deal with declining oil.
There is nothing in the report which described a true physical roadblock to expanding the grid. None.
Their report is essentially the same as the report that came out of the investigation into the 2003 blackout. Their report finishes with:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he U.S. grid can no longer be allowed to operate under weak voluntary reliability guidelines from industry. The nation cannot afford to continue a piecemeal approach to the siting,construction and repair of the national transmission grid.
• Congress must require strict federal oversight of the conditions and operation of the grid by the FERC. In turn, FERC must adopt stringent, mandatory national standards for the safe operation, construction and maintenance of the transmission grid nationwide.
• Rightofway acquisition must be accelerated under federal oversight.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', 'I') did not read the whole report, however I did read the section on the power grid, because expanding the grid is (I think) one way to help deal with declining oil.
There is nothing in the report which described a true physical roadblock to expanding the grid. None.

[SD_Scott]

It's the same story in industry. Man just wasn't born to do maintenance. It's not in our makeup. It has to be learned and strickly enforced. In fact, it's one of the biggest thorns in the side of industry. As an engineer, I F'in hate maintenance. Maintenance is a hassle and it's difficult for the people who do it to prove that it's needed. We often don't know it's needed till it's too late or allmost too late. It's the first thing to get the budget axe, because you don't get something new. A little civic pride would help. San Diego is easy to be proud of, but some areas around the country are IMO a total loss.

Thats just maintenance, don't get me started on preventative maintenance.

[FatherOfTwo]

Monte referenced the following quotes:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Consumer Energy Council of America (CECA), a national association of utility officials, state regulators and consumer advocates, warned this winter that support for new investment in the transmission grid is declining.

[MonteQuest]

FatherofTwo,
You chose to dismiss this report out of hand. That is your right. The infrastructure has a grade of D with a cost of 1.6 trillion over 5 years just to bring it to a C, much less expand it.
You cannot focus on just one aspect (the grid) and make the case that there is no physical obstacles to expanding the grid in isolation.
This report makes it quite clear: We don't have the money or time to repair and maintain what we have, much less build anything new to prepare for or mitigate peak oil.

[savethehumans]

Does anyone know how much $$ they spent on this report, to come to a conclusion that any John or Jane Doe who lives with the woes of our infrastructure would've happily given you for FREE?

[MonteQuest]

For those who dismissed the ASCE report as bullshit.
Sustainable Water Infrastructure for the 21st Century
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')lean and safe water is critical for human and ecosystem health. Our nation's livelihood depends, in large part, on the quality of our water - for drinking, swimming, recreation, economic uses, and other benefits of healthy ecosystems. Over the past 20 years communities have spent more than $1 trillion (in 2001 dollars) on drinking water treatment and supply and wastewater treatment and disposal. However, the infrastructure that provides us with drinking water and treats our waste water is aging. Much of it was constructed in the period following World War II and will be reaching the end of its useful life in the next 20-40 years. As a nation, we will be challenged to ensure that we can keep pace with the infrastructure needs of the future. Utilities and their local communities must provide the primary sources of funding to meet those needs. While federal and state funding can help water utilities meet future needs, other strategies may be appropriate for addressing the challenges we face in maintaining our nation's water infrastructure. EPA

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'F')atherofTwo,
You chose to dismiss this report out of hand. That is your right. The infrastructure has a grade of D with a cost of 1.6 trillion over 5 years just to bring it to a C, much less expand it.
You cannot focus on just one aspect (the grid) and make the case that there is no physical obstacles to expanding the grid in isolation.
This report makes it quite clear: We don't have the money or time to repair and maintain what we have, much less build anything new to prepare for or mitigate peak oil.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the electric power grid is to meet 21st−century demands, society will need to invest in extensive modernization.
An additional and significant stress on the North American power delivery system results from the discrepancy between the growth in demand for power and the expansion of the delivery system to meet that demand. From 1988 to 1998, US electricity demand rose by nearly 30% while the transmission network's capacity grew by only 15%. In its Electricity Technology Roadmap: 2003 Summary and Synthesis, the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) anticipates that the disparity will further increase during the period 1999−2009: The institute projects demand to grow by 20% and system capacity to increase by just 3.5%.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'F')atherofTwo,
You chose to dismiss this report out of hand. That is your right. The infrastructure has a grade of D with a cost of 1.6 trillion over 5 years just to bring it to a C, much less expand it.
You cannot focus on just one aspect (the grid) and make the case that there is no physical obstacles to expanding the grid in isolation.
This report makes it quite clear: We don't have the money or time to repair and maintain what we have, much less build anything new to prepare for or mitigate peak oil.