[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'A')lso, you can daisy chain up to 4 powerwalls on one panel. That gives an instant output of 20 kW. Overkill in my opinion. I have never seen my house use more than 3 kW at any time...but I don't have teenagers

We just installed a two Powerwall system at a very large house with 10 kW of solar. He may not be very efficient, but he is now grid free

[GHung]

"WE gave up heating water with electricity and use propane gas for hot water last year."

Why aren't you using your dump loads for hot water? Easy to do. I dump our surplus PV production to a 450 gallon tank.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '[')i]"WE gave up heating water with electricity and use propane gas for hot water last year."

Why aren't you using your dump loads for hot water? Easy to do. I dump our surplus PV production to a 450 gallon tank.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'H')i KJ,
I will pay $12 to connect to the grid. If they raise the minimum I will disconnect.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'A')lso, you can daisy chain up to 4 powerwalls on one panel. That gives an instant output of 20 kW. Overkill in my opinion. I have never seen my house use more than 3 kW at any time...but I don't have teenagers

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '-')snip-
I think both KJ and baha have a good point here. I agree with KJ that if you're connected to the grid, you should pay your share of the connection fee. After all, the utility (i.e. all the people connected) are benefitting from the utility maintaining the grid, and the power the utility provides from the grid).

However, what I believe will happen over time as more people go mostly solar, is the utility will raise its prices for electricity AND connection, to ensure they (and their shareholders) have a profit -- no matter how little net electricity they provide. (Even negative, if the politicians will let them get away with it).

I believe the prices will get truly outrageous, and the politicians will let them do this.

And if the politicians do pass net metering everywhere, it will just be harder on the utilities' bottom lines.

But I think Baha has a point. If he's producing plenty of electricity for the utility, he should be paid for it. I don't agree he should get the full rate the electric utility is charging -- but I think he should get a high percentage of that -- maybe 80% or so. (I'm not married to that number if someone has figures that demonstrate why the percentage should be, say, 70% or 90%). However, I am wedded to the principle.

Eventually if there is enough solar, the utility COULD be transformed into something that is 90+% about storing excess power from the community in batteries, pumped hydro, hot rocks, or whatever, maintaining the grid, and just keeping the lights on. If the community it serves produces enough excess solar and wind on average to keep the lights consistently on with their total setup -- great.

The biggest problem I see is imagining how in ALL circumstances, there won't need to be FF powered standby central power, at least in some climates. But I'll freely admit that may just be a lack of imagination. Maybe it's just a matter of a critical mass of people having solar roofs or wind turbines and it's done.

This isn't happening this year, or IMO, in one decade. But we're moving that direction, and policies and laws should be moving to prepare for and reflect that. Ir seems to me that overall reliability should improve from a decentralized system. No single point to hack. No single big production system to go down. Power produced for much of the community (or maybe all) whenever the sun shines.

Oh, and if Tony Seba's solar cost curve is remotely correct, electricity prices should decrease a lot in the next two to three decades. So the key thing will be keeping corrupt politicians and the utility lobby from making the mandatory grid fee outrageously high, for people who choose or need to stay on the grid.

(As corrupt as the system is, I'm concerned that piece won't happen). Will a cost "death spiral" occur as outraged customers leave the grid en masse entirely at some point?)

[Ibon]

Here is an image of our buildings and the position of the pelton wheel. Distances indicated to the farthest structures from the Pelton Wheel.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'H')ere is an image of our buildings and the position of the pelton wheel. Distances indicated to the farthest structures from the Pelton Wheel.

[KaiserJeep]

I did see a small map shortly after he posted his message. I don't see anything now, evidently it was visible only when he was still connected to the Forum.

As for the cost of electrical power, I just don't see it getting cheaper. The EIA figures say that the average US cost bottomed out at $0.022/kWh in 1964 and has been rising steadily to $0.128/kWh in 2017.

While it is true that the relative cost of PV energy has declined in recent years compared to FF energy, that is mainly because China has been dumping PV panels below cost to monopolize the US market. The cheapest power right now, even with solar and other alternative sources, is natural gas fuelled diesel plants, after the EPA made coal power relatively expensive with air quality standards.

I do not believe that baha will average $0.128/kWh for the lifetime of his Powerwall. I think he'll be lucky to get below $0.25/kWh. During the coming decades, I forsee that the relative cost of power will increase in rural areas and suburbs, due to the grid infrastructure costs we discussed before. At some point, the presently expensive power from a personal power plant will crossover and become cheaper than grid power. I also think that this is two decades or more in the future, looking at present pricing and trends.

In terms of reliability, there is no contest. I just experienced a 15 second power failure last week. I don't know why, but that is the only loss of power in over 3 years. Personal power plants are at least two orders of magnitude less reliable on average.

You either believe in a doom scenario, or you don't. You either believe in being self-sufficient or you don't. If you live in a city, you only have grid power. If you live in a rural area, you may eventually make a decision to make your own power, and that decision will be justified by higher costs and declining grid reliability as your grid connection ages. The suburban dweller has the option of choice - I chose to make my own power several years ago when PV panel costs were 2X what they are today - my cost crossover is still a few years away, as I am saving only a few hundred $ per year.

Dollars and sense.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
Ibon your image content doesn't show, I suggest you use something like tinypic or one of the other picture hosting websites.

[GHung]

KJ said; "In terms of reliability, there is no contest. I just experienced a 15 second power failure last week. I don't know why, but that is the only loss of power in over 3 years. Personal power plants are at least two orders of magnitude less reliable on average."

Citations? While people in my area have had numerous occasional power outages in the last 20 years, my family has had none. Not one since we've been off grid. The only two failures we've had was a cooling fan in one of 4 charge controllers and that controller never ceased operation or failed,, and another early charge controller was struck by lightning. Neither of these caused a power outage, or even much loss in PV capacity. Quick/easy fixes. Indeed, virtually nothing I've invested in has been as reliable as our PV system. Our first 3 panels are still producing at or near full rated output after 23 years. Look at the manufacture date at the bottom of the label. 10/94, and still working great after 22 years 11 months of constant use. No contest.



How many things have you invested in that are as reliable?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'N')ice looking plot Ibon,
That's a long distance to be sending 240vac. You must have some big wires, or transformers.

Yes, KJ, I already admitted I get carried away. Electricity rates will have to go up some in the short term to continue the momentum. I think .25/Kw-hr is a reasonable figure for my system. I could have done it cheaper and smaller but I wanted a robust system with room for expansion.

Remember I am not an early adopter, I am the first in my area. I wouldn't normally do that but the opportunity presented itself so I took it. I have been working my butt off supporting solar power for 7 years. Now it's going to support me

Solar and battery prices are only going down. Grid prices are only going up. The transition is upon us. I will stick with my 10 year projection for meaningful changes. I don't know where you get your reliability figures but it doesn't matter, they are both very reliable.

I don't necessarily subscribe to doom but I do feel the need to be self-sufficient. There are so many weaknesses in our infrastructure that I expect failures to occur. How much doom that causes will depend on how well you are prepared. Two weeks with no food is more doom than I can handle so I keep a supply.

City or country is a lifestyle choice. Some people think being surrounded by people and infrastructure is comforting. I think being surrounded by nature and wild animals is comforting. I can make power no matter where I live

I wish I could explain the comfort and confidence being self-reliant gives me. I cannot be threatened or manipulated by anyone. I can attack Duke Power ruthlessly and there is nothing they can do. I can champion Mother Earth and preach to the masses about energy from a position of strength, with confidence that I am right when I say there are alternatives.

I told you I inherited a bucket of money It all came from the oil industry. You can't imagine the satisfaction I get spending that money on alternative energy. If everyone did that, the transition would be over in two years.

[GHung]

Ibon: Where does the water come from?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')bon: Where does the water come from?

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')bon: Where does the water come from?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '
')Where does your drinking water come from?