[ROCKMAN]

Revi - Astute points as usual. Just a couple of small corrections. Very little oil is used to make plastics. The primary source is NG and, to a much smaller extent, refinery gases. And electricity (as is steam also) is not an energy source but a transport/storage phase. Today most electricity is made by burning fossil fuels. We are moving away from that energy SOURCE but much too slowly IMHO. Unfortunately the relatively low price of oil, NG and coal are impeding that transition.

[Cog]

Price will drive transition. As it always does.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', '
')
Again what y'all have done is admirable. But how much would have been possible without the infrastructure that exists as a result of our voluminous fossil fuel consumption? Some credit should be acknowledged, don't ya think?

[onlooker]

Yes, Rock, I believe you have received some flak here and probably in your offliine life for being associated with the "evil" FF industry. Yet, I think we in rich countries should not descend to hypocrisy as our societies have and are continuing to benefit from the tremendous energy contained within these energy sources.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', '
')
Again what y'all have done is admirable. But how much would have been possible without the infrastructure that exists as a result of our voluminous fossil fuel consumption? Some credit should be acknowledged, don't ya think?

[onlooker]

To me the most complex to forecast and to execute for humanity I believe is the energy descent. We can agree that the world and all countries will be having less energy going forward. This is the profound message of Peak Oil. How we manage or mismanage this will be the difference between life and death. I agree with Kaiser that poorer countries are not in a position to handle the challenges of resource shortages and overpopulation pressures mostly due to their lack of infrastructre and material resources and that will only get worse as they are deprived either economically or militarily from energy resources. Can we in rich countries pull off a managed gradual energy descent and not descend into total chaos. I think we may be able to if we all totally buy into the notion that we must begin weaning off FF and living more simply. Then it is a matter of returning to tried and true methods of subsistence living practiced for thousands of years. And hopefully with a supportive structure of renewable energy. But nothing is certain and the wildcard is climate change and whether its impacts will overwhelm societies ability to cope.

[Cog]

Chaos presents opportunity.

[ROCKMAN]

Folks - Even though I started this aspect of the conversation I wouldn't be so harsh with the Jeepman et al. They are doing their part what ever the savings. That's the "good" the Jeepman refers to. But we need to acknowledge that it is the fairly afflient societies that are making the biggest advances by far in the utilization of alt energy systems. My tech goes to Africa every year to help them develop water wells. Do they use solar pumps? Electrified purification systems? No, they use hand pumps and what cloth rags they might have handy. Why? Because they don't have the infrastructure or trained personnel to support the more advanced technologies.

The Jeepman and Cloggie have that support. As does the Rockman's wind power base in Texas. We can take advantage of the alt tech because we can afford it. And we can afford it because we have relatively strong economies. Economies that owe much of their strength thanks to our ravenous consumption of fossil fuels.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'C')haos presents opportunity.

[KaiserJeep]

How many of you have tried to reduce your consumption of plastic bags and wraps?
How many of you have attempted to source local foodstuffs?
How many of you have added occupancy sensors to turn off lighting in unused rooms?
How many of you use smart thermostats?
How many of you even attempt to reduce gasoline consumption?
.
.
.
I could go on and on. Step back from your self absorption, and make an effort to be frugal, even miserly, with fuels and grid energy and everything made from petroleum. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'L')OL China has zero intent to move away from oil. Their deals, acquisitions, and desire for hegemony over the South China sea tell a whole different story. China means to have oil even if it involves war with another super-power.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'C')an we in rich countries pull off a managed gradual energy descent and not descend into total chaos. I think we may be able to if we all totally buy into the notion that we must begin weaning off FF and living more simply. Then it is a matter of returning to tried and true methods of subsistence living practiced for thousands of years. And hopefully with a supportive structure of renewable energy. But nothing is certain and the wildcard is climate change and whether its impacts will overwhelm societies ability to cope.

[onlooker]

Peripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'P')eripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peripato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'P')eripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peripato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'P')eripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I do all that and way more, and it made no difference. I am good with that. Really