[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')I could go on and on. Step back from your self absorption, and make an effort to be frugal, even miserly, with fuels and grid energy and everything made from petroleum. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'A')s long as the train is going in the direction that is beneficial to me, I'm cool with it. Just saying.

[Ibon]

I remember in the 70's, this blooming of alternative energies, whole earth catalogs, organic gardening, making clothes out of burlap bags. And then suddenly the 80's came, Reagan told us it's morning in America again, and all those hippies turned to yuppies and we went on a binge forgetting almost overnight all those sustainable values. I think this history has a lot of folks sympathetic with Cog's comment yesterday

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '
')The deal is Ibon most people are entirely disingenuous about their own selfish desires. Oh they proclaim they want equality and social justice or some other mythical utopia.

[Revi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'H')ow many of you have tried to reduce your consumption of plastic bags and wraps?
How many of you have attempted to source local foodstuffs?
How many of you have added occupancy sensors to turn off lighting in unused rooms?
How many of you use smart thermostats?
How many of you even attempt to reduce gasoline consumption?
.
.
.
I could go on and on. Step back from your self absorption, and make an effort to be frugal, even miserly, with fuels and grid energy and everything made from petroleum. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', ' ')but I can't see people flying all over the place just because they're bored.

[ROCKMAN]

Revi - Gore flying around making $10,000 speeches for a couple of hours isn't the problem. And neither is a solution being brought about by anyone here living of the grid with their solar panels.

The problem is (and will continue to be) the billions of folks making relatively tiny incremental increases in fossil fuel consumption. And while it might be incouraging to see global per capita consumption leveling off for a while the population continues to increase. Which is why the world is consuming more oil today then during the vast majority of the oil age: lower prices are allowing many of those new consumers acquire even more.

Which leads to a point I made elsewhere: nearly all the gains in moving away from fossil fuels (wind, solar, EV's, etc) is being accomplished in the more developed (read affluent) economies. And why: the well developed infrastructure of those economies (built on the back of fossil fuels) facilitate alt energy utilization. Like my one standard go-to example: Texas wind power. A world class system that would not have been built bout without our tax payers funding a $7 billion grid expansion. A $7 billion expense we could not have covered if our economy was as strong as it is. Is your Maine capable of handling a similar "investmeny" for you future?

Thus the odd paradox: those societies that have benefited the most from fossil fuel consumption (and continue to do so today) are the ones most capable of moving away from fossil fuels. As long as they don't move faster the their fossil fuel supported infrastructure can handle.

[KaiserJeep]

I put forth the basic conundrum we all face four years ago when I joined. Perhaps it is time I again rubbed the grim facts in your faces.

7.5B human beings is simply an unsustainable number. That many people, even if each were an ardent environmentalist living a low impact lifestyle, would still be driving the planet rapidly into mass extinction. Recall that the present rate of plant/animal/etc. species extinctions is unprecedented in the fossil record. The presence of 7.5B Kudzu Apes is the deadliest condition ever experienced by this planet called Earth.

They are already here, and the majority have only marginal lifestyles by First World standards, and they all want what we have - health, clean water, enough food, bountiful energy, and toys. But there isn't enough stuff on the planet to give them that, and if we attempt to do so, we will be killing the planet more rapidly.

When we just look at China, if we were to simply bring that 1.379B (2016 figure from wiki) up to Western standards, there is not enough refinery capacity, let alone petroleum. Not to mention, some demographers claim tha India surpassed China as the Earth's most populous country this year.

You as an individual have two viable choices:

1) Become an advocate of Gaia, Mother Earth, Nature, the Living Planet, the Planetary Ecosystem, whatever you want to call it, and of preserving the same. This necessarily involves advocating genocide of all humans everywhere on the planet, for the sake of all other species. The idea if taken to an extreme involves mass human suicide, and a dwindling number of humans acting as caretakers, healing the broken ecosystem, before dying without reproducing. In any case, 7.5B, or 10B or more dead humans.

2) Become what you already are by the way you are living, which is a destructive species that is killing the ecosystem faster than the Chicxulub impactor did when it struck the planet 65M years ago and cashed in the chips for the dominant dinosaur species. As the population grows, we take over the ecosystem and simplify it, until only humans and their food species remain.

Yes, that's a discription of two extremes. I won't deny that there are a wealth of positions between them. I take the second path as an advocate of humanity. That does not prevent me from being saddened by the deterioration around me, I have been watching the world decline for decades. My only other point is that the two extremes are the most viable paths, and that attempting to walk some middle path IMHO does more damage in the long run.

Those of you who have chosen to hide somewhere that does not rub your face is the basic choice man vs. planet, are hiding rather than making this choice, pretending - along with the majority of humans - that no choice is necessary.

[GHung]

Typical binary conclusion, Jeepster. A third response is to conclude we're screwed either way and plan watch it play out from the cheap seats while the rest of humanity continues it's devolution into insanity.

[onlooker]

I like very much the ideas of Kaiser in this respect. But I would go further and depict our Catch 22 as something totally beyond our control in the sense that we now have present these conditions which are rapidly deteriorating the basis for most life on this planet. We are NOT going to commit mass suicide. We may decide to eliminate via War and such many people but I would not define that as suicide but simply survival of the fittest. We are going to be culled one way or the other but we will not do so voluntarily. That to me is the unalterable status of our existence as a species at this time. The only question is how we attempt to manage or adapt to this harsh reality. Maybe we can build artificial environments that hardly need at all a vibrant natural world, maybe some of us manage to survive out in space. That would be examples of adapting but the Age of Consequences is here and that cannot be altered.

[KaiserJeep]

Perhaps we will have gained enough wisdom to avoid conflict and resource wars and nuclear war.

Which would mean we continue to reproduce, killing everything until a few humans remain on a mostly barren Earth.

It may be the actual path we are on, given our ape instincts. But I never said there was a binary choice, given the situation. There are many many permutations, most continue to extinguish other species, until finally we end up living in a place that has only genetically engineered plants and animals and insects - and 30B or so humans, and smells bad.

[onlooker]

Yes, I forgot the part of us modifying ourselves genetically/cybernetically. Sorry Kaiser.

[KaiserJeep]

Not so much ourselves as our food species. I believe we are all of us consuming GMO plants and animals already, mostly unknowingly, and in spite of GMO labelling requirements.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'W')hich leads to a point I made elsewhere: nearly all the gains in moving away from fossil fuels (wind, solar, EV's, etc) is being accomplished in the more developed (read affluent) economies. And why: the well developed infrastructure of those economies (built on the back of fossil fuels) facilitate alt energy utilization. Like my one standard go-to example: Texas wind power. A world class system that would not have been built bout without our tax payers funding a $7 billion grid expansion. A $7 billion expense we could not have covered if our economy was as strong as it is. Is your Maine capable of handling a similar "investmeny" for you future?

[Cog]

@Ibon

I would say the daughter did get a sense of frugality and savings from me. We certainly talked about it a lot and she is debt free and intends to stay that way. She does believe in all the liberal laundry list of things like single payer healthcare, Trump is literally Hitler, etc. We get along well now but there was some not so kind words exchanged after the election. People on both sides invested a lot of emotion into it.

I would say she is like some millennials. Doesn't care about a lot about material possessions but likes experiences. Eating at new and unique places and seeing things and meeting people. She certainly didn't get that from me as I'm boring and dislike most people.