by Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 17:25:38
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')Ah yes, but the intentional part is that they do something with the material that comes from this mystic well spring. Any artist will tell you that sometimes it "works" and sometimes it doesn't. Just because an artist has an intuition does not mean it is relevant or even any good. We all fart too but if you put it in a can and try to sell it might be a hard sell. Well maybe not on Ebay.
'this mystic well spring'? 'farts in a can'?
kinda snarling at the Muses, dontcha think? The Ebay thing isn't far off the mark! Folks have made big bucks selling 'ghosts in a jar' on Ebay.
Snarling at the muses comes with the territory because it is very fickle. Ask any writer who has a block that stops them dead in their tracks. Orpheus is the perfect example of this relationship.
by Zentric » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 18:18:47
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', 'B')eliefs are things sensed without substance but rather we have imposed the meaning instead of drawing intrinsically from the thing itself.
This above definition of 'beliefs' is hurting. Define it better, using terms such as 'emperical', then this debate might go away.
But where would we be then?
Okay. Taking the life after death example. We have no direct knowledge of what happens to us. Yet, that is unsettling so we impose meaning beyond what is empirical. We project our sentiments on it and come up with a myriad of belief systems that serve to explain away or comfort us in regards to such a seemingly terminal state. We hope there may be life after death because we cannot comprehend total finality.
But there is nothing in the observation of death per se that would provide any seed to these beliefs. They are made of vapor. My premise has been that there are many things in this world which are pattently incomprehensible and unknowable. But it does not follow that we need to invent a belief to live a productive life under those circumstances. As a matter of fact I contend that dropping beliefs will allow us to live without the polarizing effects in interpersonal relations that belief systems create.
"Belief are things sensed without substance." In otherwords, there is no empirical reason to sense anything (i.e. there is nothing there).
"...we have imposed the meaning instead of drawing intrinsically from the thing itself." Meaning, we project a meaning onto the meaningless or unknowable.
For the purpose of this discussion, Bobbotov, to hell with faith-based religions and how they impose their strictures and structures upon gullible humans. I can make a dichotomy between belief based upon ritual and dogma and the belief based on direct personal experience. But can you?
Admittedly, we're using the word "belief" in slightly different contexts here. Does this throw you?
While reality is continuous and our definitions (that is, the labels used) that describe it are discreet, getting into the reality-describing business can be a bit of a fool's errand. Nevertheless, are you up for it?
Any dictionary you look at is going to tell you that "faith" and "belief" are synonymous. Okay, fine for a first-order approximation - I won't argue with it within that limited context.
I'm looking around my place where I live at the moment. There's a baseball cap sitting on the file cabinet that fit my head yesterday. I haven't thrown it in the washer, and I don't feel that my head is any bigger today than yesterday, so I'm going to
believe that when I go outside later to take a walk, the cap is going to fit the same as yesterday. And even if it doesn't, big deal. I have a belief as well as a faith, actually, in objective reality. And I also believe that my meat-machinery brain is well enough tuned to deal with setbacks such as an old hat that doesn't fit quite like it should, and such setbacks have little or no chance of throwing off my view of an objective world or universe.
And you wish to compare my
belief in the strong continuity of objective reality to another's
belief that when he dies he's going to ascend to heaven and meet Jesus? I think it would serve you well to make the distinction between the type of thing which is more like belief based on the demonstrable and repetitious (observable, objective reality) and the thing that is more like faith or a promise - Jesus.
Define your terms, and, after doing so, if your meaning still isn't sufficiently clear, use more words to give the meaning a clear distinction. Or, while you're doing this and you get stuck, ask for help. This is what I often do. And I think you're doing this yourself. So, thank you, I appreciate what you're doing here.
by Bobbotov » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 11:18:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zentric', 'F')or the purpose of this discussion, Bobbotov, to hell with faith-based religions and how they impose their strictures and structures upon gullible humans. I can make a dichotomy between belief based upon ritual and dogma and the belief based on direct personal experience. But can you?
I am not sure why this would be necessary.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zentric', '
')
Admittedly, we're using the word "belief" in slightly different contexts here. Does this throw you?
Is hair splitting necessary? If I just say that
belief= not knowing is that not all encompassing?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zentric', ' ')While reality is continuous and our definitions (that is, the labels used) that describe it are discreet, getting into the reality-describing business can be a bit of a fool's errand. Nevertheless, are you up for it?
Reality speaks for itself. It is when we gild the lilly with all manner of philosophy we get into trouble. Animals share reality and for numerous reasons thay have no problem with it as it is as far as I can discern.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zentric'', ' ')Any dictionary you look at is going to tell you that "faith" and "belief" are synonymous. Okay, fine for a first-order approximation - I won't argue with it within that limited context.
by Bobbotov » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 14:30:12
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '
')
Bobbotov -
You come across as one who is unable to place much faith in the repetitiveness and predictability of the natural phenomena that surrounds him.
No. Usefulness requires no faith. Either it is or it isn't on a case by case basis.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '
')
Atoms and molecules, when they get together, form systems like suns, planets and galaxies. We ourselves, and our immediate surroundings are ultimately made of this same stuff, and, since we have no choice in the matter, must subsume to the natural patterns of matter and energy -- so, if you want to believe in something, you need look no further than your own self. For example, you eat food, you get energy, you go to john, etc.
Are you saying that because I de facto exist I have to also believe it too? That is absurd. You have just done what I said is mutually exclusive that knowledge supercedes belief. If I know it is Friday do I have to believe it is Friday also? What is the point of that?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '
')
We, with our imperfect reality-sensing devices - which is to say, our minds - can tease out the existence of laws of how atoms and molecules (and quarks and electrons and neutrinos, etc.) and micro and macro systems behave when they interact with each other, are when they are left undisturbed. This kind of reality is discernable although never, I figure, knowable down to the last detail. And you yourself appear to be snagged on this very small detail. Please, don't be snagged. Knowledge is relative. The truth is out there, though you're never going to know it exactly. Our imperfect reality perceptors are never going to give you that 100% closure you seek. Heisenberg had a principle about this. You are asking for too much. I agree with what PMS has just said.
You are making a supposition which is okay but it does not challenge anything I said. I alluded to Heisenberg with the uncertainty principle. For clarification "uncertainty" means you are not sure. In contrast to the scientific principle which is all about knowing through observation and repeatable results uncertainty flies in the face of it if it is agreed we cannot know with certainty.
by PenultimateManStanding » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 14:46:38
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', ' ')You contradicted yourself on that quantum physics bit (though the breath mint line was humorous).
In what way did I contradict myself?
Here's the quote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')cience does not have faith in the scientific principle in so far as it knows it works when applied correctly or at least can point to a long history of success with the technique. However, it breaks down with Quantum physics and the whole uncertainty principle and its effect on observation or repeatable results is challenged. Is light a wave, a particle or a breath mint?
You say they know it works when applied correctly, and then say that it breaks down with quantum physics. Well, quantum physics is pretty much mainstream accepted science and has resulted in these computers we are using. Talk about a long history success with the technique. No breakdown there. Anyway, you don't accept my very persuasive arguments? How about some more along the same lines: In sports, faith in one's ability is a major factor. 'You gotta
believe! Confidence is faith. We tell our kids 'you can be or do whatever you want to!' Why? To give them confidence. A salesman goes out into the world and psyches himself up 'I'm gonna make the big sale today!' All forms of faith and belief in everyday life. 'In America, anyone can grow up and become President!' 'America, the land of the Free and the Home of the Brave!' 'The grocery store will have what I'm going there to buy.' I could go on and on. Faith is
everywhere. Is it always warranted? Not by a long shot, but its a constant in life, because it is necessary and indispensible. I have a feeling there's going to be a great deal of
loss of faith right around the corner. Not a good thing when that happens, but it appears to be inevitable.
by Bobbotov » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 15:04:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
You say they know it works when applied correctly, and then say that it breaks down with quantum physics. Well, quantum physics is pretty much mainstream accepted science and has resulted in these computers we are using.
It does breakdown with Quantum physics for the reason I explained about about uncertainty. Knowledge is based on certainty and as soon as you say something is uncertain you are admitting you CANNOT KNOW!
Perhaps Quantum mechanics is at operation with computers but that is not why they are here. Babbage and boolean mathematics occured long before Heisenberg. We really do not know with certainty what electricity is yet we can find many useful purposes for it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Talk about a long history success with the technique. No breakdown there. Anyway, you don't accept my very persuasive arguments? How about some more along the same lines: In sports, faith in one's ability is a major factor. 'You gotta
believe! Confidence is faith. We tell our kids 'you can be or do whatever you want to!' Why? To give them confidence. A salesman goes out into the world and psyches himself up 'I'm gonna make the big sale today!' All forms of faith and belief in everyday life.
Just because people delude themselves and occassionally get favorable results does not replace knowledge. That is the same crapshoot as Quantum mechanics. People psyche themselves up over all kinds of things but they do so with uncertainty. If I KNEW I would win the lottery that would remove the chance factor completely. If I knew I would win the sale then what is there to believe in? But I KNOW I cannot overcome chance no matter what BS I might believe.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
'In America, anyone can grow up and become President!' '
Ah, not Arnold Schwartzenegger.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
America, the land of the Free and the Home of the Brave!'
Just a joke, no flame. I'm serious.
