[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'F')WIW, there was a past that was primarily agrarian, but the world population was much smaller then. There are other issues to consider, such as infant mortality rates, etc.

[DesuMaiden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'F')WIW, there was a past that was primarily agrarian, but the world population was much smaller then. There are other issues to consider, such as infant mortality rates, etc.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesuMaiden', '
')I never said the present population is sustainable...it is not. We have long exceeded the long-term carrying capacity of the Earth. It is just that it is unlikely there will be a sudden die off. More likely, a gradual decline in population until our population goes back down to levels during the Pathelolic. Eventually, I believe humans may go extinct...but that's probably centuries to millennia from now. I doubt humans will become extinct in a few decades...

But I doubt we will never become extinct...all species eventually become extinct. But unlike most species, our extinction will be due to our own undoing...we are a victim of our own success. We...as humans...are too clever and powerful for our own good. Most other species become extinct because of environmental reasons that out of their control...on the other hand, we may become extinct because we end up destroying ourselves with our excessive technological prowess.

But most likely, we will end up destroying most of the other life forms on the planet before we finally become extinct. I do believe Homo sapiens is the most destructive species known in the fossil record. Wherever mankind spread across the globe, a spasm of extinctions followed.

Of course, if business as usual continues (which it most likely will), we will become extinct sooner rather than latter. Unlike the collapse of previous civilizations, we ain't going to build another more glorious civilization after this one collapses. We...Homo sapiens...will eventually decend into Olduvai Gorge. In other words, we are going to slowly regress back to the Stone Age, and then finally extinction.

The reason I doubt we will be able to quietly go back to the 1700 AD is because back in the 1700s, there was still plenty of resources to exploit. But during the past three hundred years, thanks to the use of fossil fuels, we have depleted and exhausted almost all of the Earth's nonrenewable, finite and irreplaceable resources.

Let me give you an example. In previous iron-using civilizations (like the Romans, Greeks, and etc), they used high-quality, easy-to-mine iron ore to produce steel. However, over the centuries, all of the high-quality, easy-to-mine iron ore has been gradually used up. Today, in order to produce steel, we must mine low-quality iron-ore from difficult-to-access places that require a huge amount of fossil fuel machinery for the mining, processing and etc of the iron ore. As fossil fuels go into decline over the next couple of decades, our ability to go after such iron ore becomes more and more limited. Eventually, as such, our ability to utilize iron-based technology becomes more restricted and limited. Eventually, we might no longer have access to anymore iron. And since iron is another irreplaceable resource, this will result in us having to eventually have to go back the Stone Age.

Of course, this doesn't worry me too much because I doubt I will see civilization descend back to the Stone Age in my life time. But there is a very high probability people centuries from now might have to go back to the Stone Age due to the lack of accessibility of iron ore.

[americandream]

There is no way we can, as memeber of the non-elite, protect ourselves from the toxic infrastructural time bomb other than by arming ourselves collectively with the sort of knowledge necessary to remediate and make the resulting setup work globally. Anything less and we will go into a meltdown releasing huge amounts of labour dependent toxins into our atmosphere.

And that is not even factoring in the climate which is a dohboi speciality I can only but gloss over for the moment and keep my fingers crossed...especially as I do not have the luxury of running away but having to sit this baby out.

[DesuMaiden]

Ralfy, you just need to accept the fact that ALL species eventually become extinct. All species includes Homo sapiens. The main reason most people can't accept this fact is because they incorrectly assume that humans are somehow special and except from the same rules that govern the rest of the biological world. Most people think in an anthrocentric, or human-centred, world view, and this largely because of our genetic predisposition.

But it is becoming more and more obvious to a few select individuals that the world was not made for the sake of human use. Ironically, the rest of the biosphere on Earth would be better off if this rapacious species of primate, know as Homo sapiens, became extinct. Humans destroy almost every ecosystem they come in contact with, making us little more than an invasive species to most parts of the world, outside of our native homeland, which is the African continent.

I don't feel in the least uncomfortable about accepting the fact that humans will most likely one day become extinct. And neither should you because embracing reality, no matter how cruel it may seem, is better than denying it. That's because denying reality can spell disaster for those that do it.

[jedrider]

Humans are like the mosquitos of the primate world, except mosquitos have a stabilizing function in nature that humans lack.

[DesuMaiden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'H')umans are like the mosquitos of the primate world, except mosquitos have a stabilizing function in nature that humans lack.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesuMaiden', 'R')alfy, you just need to accept the fact that ALL species eventually become extinct. All species includes Homo sapiens. The main reason most people can't accept this fact is because they incorrectly assume that humans are somehow special and except from the same rules that govern the rest of the biological world. Most people think in an anthrocentric, or human-centred, world view, and this largely because of our genetic predisposition.

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesuMaiden', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'H')umans are like the mosquitos of the primate world, except mosquitos have a stabilizing function in nature that humans lack.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'D')idn't you ever ask yourself 'Why did God create mosquitos?'

The answer is obvious after a while: To keep primates away, especially those lacking proper fur, like us humans

[Newfie]

No! Without God there is no Devil, no Hell.

And mosquitos surely are the spawn of hell!

[Ibon]

We did many a trip in the back country of Everglades NP the years I lived in South Florida. We had a flats boat and camped in the wilderness less than 50 miles from Miami and we experienced solitude and pristine mangrove and sawgrass landscapes with no one around. 99% of visitors haul their asses out of the park before nightfall. The mosquitoes number in the trillions but once you learn their rhythms and you have your screened in porch and fire set up by nightfall you learn to coexist with them. Also after you are bitten 500 times in a day you experience this soft glow throughout your body and you no longer itch.

I had an arrangement with mosquitoes. They were for me the guardians of the everglades, they kept humans out. I therefore let them feed on my blood and thanked them for their service.

[Timo]

Ibon, I honestly...................

.................don't..............


..............know............... what................


..............to........................................





......................................say.......................................

about that.


You are very different.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')e did many a trip in the back country of Everglades NP the years I lived in South Florida. We had a flats boat and camped in the wilderness less than 50 miles from Miami and we experienced solitude and pristine mangrove and sawgrass landscapes with no one around. 99% of visitors haul their asses out of the park before nightfall. The mosquitoes number in the trillions but once you learn their rhythms and you have your screened in porch and fire set up by nightfall you learn to coexist with them. Also after you are bitten 500 times in a day you experience this soft glow throughout your body and you no longer itch.

I had an arrangement with mosquitoes. They were for me the guardians of the everglades, they kept humans out. I therefore let them feed on my blood and thanked them for their service.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesuMaiden', 'R')alfy, you just need to accept the fact that ALL species eventually become extinct. All species includes Homo sapiens. The main reason most people can't accept this fact is because they incorrectly assume that humans are somehow special and except from the same rules that govern the rest of the biological world. Most people think in an anthrocentric, or human-centred, world view, and this largely because of our genetic predisposition.

But it is becoming more and more obvious to a few select individuals that the world was not made for the sake of human use. Ironically, the rest of the biosphere on Earth would be better off if this rapacious species of primate, know as Homo sapiens, became extinct. Humans destroy almost every ecosystem they come in contact with, making us little more than an invasive species to most parts of the world, outside of our native homeland, which is the African continent.

I don't feel in the least uncomfortable about accepting the fact that humans will most likely one day become extinct. And neither should you because embracing reality, no matter how cruel it may seem, is better than denying it. That's because denying reality can spell disaster for those that do it.

[DesuMaiden]

Ralfy, you have the courage to accept reality for what is. That makes you more enlightened than at least 90 percent of the population, who are, in my opinion, as clueless as bacteria in a Petri dish. We are facing a crisis of unimaginable proportions, and yet I still see people doing everything to make this crisis worse. And that crisis is where the population of humans continues to rapidly increase while the resources necessary to support them is rapidly dwindling. All the while, we are producing massive amounts of pollution. Homo sapiens is doing everything within his power to undermine the Earth's carrying capacity...the eventual outcome, which is inevitable, is overshoot and die off and extinction of the human race.

There is no way any technological innovation can save us from the dilemmas we are facing as a species. Not even free energy can save us because we will probably end up depleting all of the other resources on this planet, and thereby cause our extinction if we had access to free energy. Giving a species as foolish as Homo sapiens access to free energy will inevitably spell disaster to the whole biosphere since we are already inflicting incredible damage to the biosphere with the powers we already have.

Imagine giving a 2 year old a real handgun loaded with bullets as a toy. The two year old would probably end up killing him or herself since he/she can't responsibly use the handgun. This analogy also perfectly applies to what would happen if you gave humans access to free energy. We will end up wiping ourselves out with such a powerful energy source.

[onlooker]

That is a good point by Desu. Hypothetically, speaking if we could totally correct all these imbalances it would involve significantly reducing our population, having clean energy (more important than free energy), cleaning up our planet and adopting as a species a true taboo against any type of wasteful behavior and rapacious consumerism. It also would involve cherishing Nature and holding it above any other concerns.

[DesuMaiden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'T')hat is a good point by Desu. Hypothetically, speaking if we could totally correct all these imbalances it would involve significantly reducing our population, having clean energy (more important than free energy), cleaning up our planet and adopting as a species a true taboo against any type of wasteful behavior and rapacious consumerism. It also would involve cherishing Nature and holding it above any other concerns.

[onlooker]

That is why I said hypothetically speaking. I too see what i mentioned happening as virtually impossible.

[DesuMaiden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'T')hat is why I said hypothetically speaking. I too see what i mentioned happening as virtually impossible.