[Ibon]

This question has been raised in a few threads but I think it merits it's own discussion because we might be soon entering into a time when we move from denial to that next stage in the Kubler Ross stages of grief. The Anger stage. When it comes to something like accepting loss or death, you work through these stages of grief knowing that in the end there is loss. In the case of confronting climate change or peak oil or any other aspect of human overshoot, these stages don't exactly play out since the end game isn't loss or death but trying to fix or repair or re engineer many aspects of modern civilization.

Getting past denial for this reason has been a huge task because once you acknowledge what is dysfunctional you then have to stare in the face the daunting task of actually executing mitigation. And as we have all discussed many times this leads us to many unsolvable issues.

If we had easy solutions we could harness the Anger stage and rally the troops so to speak in finding consensus and taking action around major issues we discuss. The risk though is that this Anger stage can last even longer than the Denial stage has lasted simply because solutions are inherently complex when it comes to trying to self regulate our global civilization around energy use, climate change, consumption, population, etc.

So what exactly happens after Denial is Over?

[davep]

For info, the five stages of grief according to Kubler-Ross are:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Denial — The first reaction is denial. In this stage individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.
Anger — When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, it becomes frustrated, especially at proximate individuals. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"; "Why would this happen?".
Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise.
Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the individual becomes saddened by the mathematical probability of death. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen.
Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."; "Nothing is impossible."
In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')his question has been raised in a few threads but I think it merits it's own discussion because we might be soon entering into a time when we move from denial to that next stage in the Kubler Ross stages of grief. The Anger stage. When it comes to something like accepting loss or death, you work through these stages of grief knowing that in the end there is loss. In the case of confronting climate change or peak oil or any other aspect of human overshoot, these stages don't exactly play out since the end game isn't loss or death but trying to fix or repair or re engineer many aspects of modern civilization.

Getting past denial for this reason has been a huge task because once you acknowledge what is dysfunctional you then have to stare in the face the daunting task of actually executing mitigation. And as we have all discussed many times this leads us to many unsolvable issues.

If we had easy solutions we could harness the Anger stage and rally the troops so to speak in finding consensus and taking action around major issues we discuss. The risk though is that this Anger stage can last even longer than the Denial stage has lasted simply because solutions are inherently complex when it comes to trying to self regulate our global civilization around energy use, climate change, consumption, population, etc.

So what exactly happens after Denial is Over?

[ROCKMAN]

With regards to energy haven't we gone thru various levels of some stages for decades? Does no one but the Rockman remember the extreme denial/anger expressed by the public over gasoline prices about 35 years ago? How about just 7 years ago in '08 when gasoline prices peaked? How about the anger expressed by folks up north that couldn't get enough NG through the distribution system during those nasty cold snaps that winter? Of course how many stages someone passed thru depended on the individual. There was probably even a small portion of the population that reached acceptance during those harsh periods.

Why would there be any expectation of a change in human nature regarding fossil fuels then what we've witnessed for many decades?

[hvacman]

Good question, but I think Kubler-Ross' model totally breaks down in very-long-term-dynamic change scenarios, especially as it applies to whole civilizations as opposed to individuals. It does offer a great area of psychology to study...a study that could take 100's or 1000's of years to complete...

Shades of Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy!

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hvacman', 'G')ood question, but I think Kubler-Ross' model totally breaks down in very-long-term-dynamic change scenarios, especially as it applies to whole civilizations as opposed to individuals. It does offer a great area of psychology to study...a study that could take 100's or 1000's of years to complete...

Shades of Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy!

[onlooker]

What I find very interesting is how entrenched denial is throughout societies and countries. Denial is understandable considering the nature of what we collectively would have to admit. However, it is not just about denial it is also ignorance not enough people around the world truly understand the bind we are in. This is partly due to world-wide media and public persons in power not being forthright about the true situation. I am totally agnostic about what comes after denial if in fact that involves a clear understanding world-wide of the true dimensions of our predicament. I do believe people will deal with the "reality" in different ways commensurate with their personality types. As for the TPTB well who knows. One other thing strong proactive leadership would be very beneficial.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')I think the Anger stage will burn hot but fast because staying angry does not last long for most people. In my experience Denial, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance are all much longer lasting than Anger. Anger can only be maintained with constant stimulation, like an actual war where danger is ever present and impossible to ignore.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')One other thing strong proactive leadership would be very beneficial.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')One other thing strong proactive leadership would be very beneficial.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')One other thing strong proactive leadership would be very beneficial.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')aises another question. How tolerant will society be of alternative life styles if we move toward communal consensus?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')Once enough people realize certain communities or groups are thriving or at least holding their own it could attract others to join them. If others believe as I do that cooperation is better than competition then we will seek to absorb willingly and voluntarily those who wish to be part of such a cooperative community rather then force someone to comply.

[Cog]

Since crash and doom isn't going to happen within our lifetimes, then the question is mute. Our children and grandchildren will deal with the world as they inherit it from us.

[SeaGypsy]

How many millions are being placed permanently on SSRI anti depressant meds? What a fucked society, pissweak, completely expectant of okayness.

[onlooker]

Actually that crystallizes a thought for me Ibon about the Internet. I have often thought that the Internet has served as a way to unite people of different races, cultures, backgrounds etc. I think people have awaken to a large degree in terms of realizing the corruption and ineptitude of governing structures and also the continuous assault upon the Earth. I really feel every day people are logging on and being presented with data and anecdotes relative to the overshoot circumstances we find ourselves in. Now they may or may not relate it all together and understand how overshoot is the overarching dysfunction that is producing these problems, but they certainly realize something is very wrong. They know and are learning that people around the world are sharing common concerns and problems. So with respect to your inquiry of internet consensus building most assuredly YES. I do believe people around the world want change in many ways. This desire for real change can serve as a basis for unification of the masses under the banner of change. In doing so pave the way to confront the worst of the consequences so humans can confront these consequences united rather than separated.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'S')ince crash and doom isn't going to happen within our lifetimes, then the question is mute. Our children and grandchildren will deal with the world as they inherit it from us.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'S')ince crash and doom isn't going to happen within our lifetimes, then the question is mute. Our children and grandchildren will deal with the world as they inherit it from us.

[Newfie]

Ibon,

Suppose we never do get over denial?

First we blame things on TPTB.

Then on other countries and go to war with them.

Etc.

What does "end of denial" even entail? What realization? That humanity is a greedy, short sighted species? That we can't control our urges to procreate? That we can't not fight for growth?

[onlooker]

The gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.”