[Lore]

Psychologically some people never accept the truth of what is actually happening. Entering into a catatonic state in the fetal position until it's all over for them.

[onlooker]

Newfie, that we are in the process of destroying ourselves and much of the living world also.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'N')ewfie, that we are in the process of destroying ourselves and much of the living world also.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')bon,

Suppose we never do get over denial?

First we blame things on TPTB.

Then on other countries and go to war with them.

Etc.

What does "end of denial" even entail? What realization? That humanity is a greedy, short sighted species? That we can't control our urges to procreate? That we can't not fight for growth?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'P')sychologically some people never accept the truth of what is actually happening. Entering into a catatonic state in the fetal position until it's all over for them.

[SeaGypsy]

Seems like everyone missed my brief rant on SSRIs. How does society get further into the cycle when depression is seen as a 'chemical imbalance in the brain' to be 'treated' by chemically separating the emotional & logical parts of the brain- with millions more people put on these with no end date? From experience I am aware these drugs do prevent a significant number of suicides, but they also dull people out really badly & destroy a whole lot of relationships over the long term. They may also be preventing a heck of a lot of valid expression about the state of the world.

[ralfy]

Probably chaos and war.

[dolanbaker]

HVAC yes I agree, this is a very long term situation, It is unlikely that we'll see a sudden splurge of panic buying like we had in the 1970s. It is more likely that it will be a repeat of 2008 when fuel prices start to rise when the shortfall in supply eventually happens, a slow creeping type of an event.

Too slow for there to be any real reaction!

All we'll see is a few people "drop out" of consumption and then remainder will not see any shortages.
It's important to remember that the decline will happen over decades not years.

PS: I posted this earlier but it failed to display, so re-sent!

[EdwinSm]

I will go back to the Anger question. I have no idea how long it might last, but it is the phase that worries me most. If is one thing when an individual expresses anger, but when a whole group of people do it it tends to violence and destruction. Even a short hot outburst of anger could do serious damage to the infrastructure and make any transition to a lower energy state all the harder.

An example taken from the Russian Revolution in the Ukraine: In addition to the Reds fighting the Whites, there were also the Anarchist bands who were out to take revenge on those they saw as wealthy. In the process of killing the rich they also destroyed a lot of property and a lot of the farming ability (eg deliberately cutting down fruit trees). This was one factor that helped lead to famine in the area.

Other examples we can think of are riots in cities and how quickly fires can start and spread.

I am not sure how we can effectively address the Anger to deflect it from developing into violence. In the (very) limited spheres that I can affect I have tried to encourage some form of energy efficiency, or ability to use local resources - in the hope that people already have something to negotiate about. What I have helped to influence is far to small to deal with any major crises to I am back to worrying about an Angry crowd getting out of hand.

[onlooker]

Edwin good points. That is precisely why cooperation and a less top down approach to administering the collective or group must be emphasized as much as possible. Basically, we can distill the human interactions into negative or positive, inclusive or exclusive. Humans during these coming times will be stressed and emotional. It is imperative that everyone is included as an informed and productive member of the group and that no small group hijack the larger group for their own purposes. Also, as I stated previously force should only be used when absolutely necessary. It is during these turbulent times when people should most submit not to other people but to a set of guidelines to govern behavior. We will have a wide range of possible emotions and reactions to the circumstances to come and only by uniting into peaceful, productive and farsighted communities can we hope to navigate successfully the times ahead.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', '
')
All we'll see is a few people "drop out" of consumption and then remainder will not see any shortages.
It's important to remember that the decline will happen over decades not years.

[ROCKMAN]

Oddly driving in this morning I was contemplating the "denial" issue. Specifically such views from AGW deniers and folks that won't accept that fossil fuels will remain a critical component of the global economies for decades to come. Which brings me back to a point I made about climate change deniers who might actually accept the facts behind AGW but won't publicly acknowledge it for any number of reasons. Many US politicians come to mind. LOL.

The term that popped to mind: WILLFUL IGNORANCE. IOW a very strong desire to ignore facts they would normally accept but since they don't support their position they'll argue against those believable facts as best they can.

[SeaGypsy]

All it took for me to drop out was enough smarts to figure that if all these peeps telling me what to do knew what to do they would be happy, which clearly they were not- Don Quixote here comes SeaGypper!

[onlooker]

The case of the denial of politicians is stark. They have the strongest of reasons to deny, their political careers. If they start revealing the truth about climate change and consequently the need to divest from FF, they would be voted out of office quicker then the speed of light. While their funding from corporations would quickly dry up. As per what Rockman stated, society is committed to keep on running on fossil fuels as no replacement exists making the choice for politicians a no brainer.

[SeaGypsy]

Actually nuclear energy is very likely to be able to fully replace FF energy requirements- technically, but not politically.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'E')dwin good points. That is precisely why cooperation and a less top down approach to administering the collective or group must be emphasized as much as possible. Basically, we can distill the human interactions into negative or positive, inclusive or exclusive. Humans during these coming times will be stressed and emotional. It is imperative that everyone is included as an informed and productive member of the group and that no small group hijack the larger group for their own purposes. Also, as I stated previously force should only be used when absolutely necessary. It is during these turbulent times when people should most submit not to other people but to a set of guidelines to govern behavior. We will have a wide range of possible emotions and reactions to the circumstances to come and only by uniting into peaceful, productive and farsighted communities can we hope to navigate successfully the times ahead.

[Pops]

You must lose something before you grieve.

When I was a kid there was no "environmental awareness." The rule was "the solution to pollution is dilution." Put another way, dump whatever in the river (or down the one-holer) and it will dilute enough to be harmless. But, in the 60/70's there become apparent an actual loss that prompted the beginnings of an environmental movement. Clean air and clean water had actually been lost. I think younger Americans can't really grasp how bad air quality was in the big urban basins like LA, or even in an area as large as the central valley of CA. Acid rain, clear-cuts, burning rivers, tire fires, crumbling cityscapes were the "bomb craters" the baby boom confronted. Not quite the ruin of Europe our grandparents faced but all physically manifest.

So if overshoot and die-off is the point of the grieving, I'm thinking we won't be seeing the end of "denial" any time soon. As much as we couple of dozen here like to believe we are the true omniscient seers possessing the true sight to understand the situation, I'm kinda thinking die-off will be fairly obvious and I'm not seeing anything on Twitter.

(Take for example, FB was down globally for 10 minutes yesterday and it really did look like the end)

Go Back!

[onlooker]

thank you for your input Tanada always appreciate your insight. This issue has and always will be central to humanity. How do we govern ourselves. It is true it is much more numerous the instances of societies succumbing to a an elite leadership structure or hierarchy. On the other hand when societies have been more egalitarian and under less tyrannical rule they have functioned better. Ala Athens, American Indians, the US in it's early days. The problem is that humans can rarely agree on much as a community and therefore ideally an outside impetus should exist for people to coalesce around a set of ideas. Well, the consequences of overshoot will provide this impetus as Ibon referred to around a veneration of Earth and a cooperative framework to survive and flourish under difficult circumstances. I will concede that humanity has not shown a propensity for being able to live under a cooperative and sharing model, however the set of circumstance to unfold will basically force humans to re-examine the very nature of their humanity and their willingness or lack thereof to work together to survive and thrive. Some will say that just as likely we will descend into barbarism as consequences become more harsh. Well the choices are stark and a middle ground will hardly be viable as people must chose barbarism or altruism.

[ROCKMAN]

Pops - "You must lose something before you grieve." For sure. I doubt it got much national publicity beyond the first few stories. But in Texas the grieving process over the loss of Blue Bell ice cream was the number one issue here for many months. My daughter-in-law's marines in Athens are still deep in grief as the Navy store has yet to begin restocking BBIC. LOL.

[PrestonSturges]

Many deadenders will cling to denial for years, but most of them will gradually shift over to irrelevant scapegoating like blaming the Jews.