[Quinny]

Especially for 6

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders

• Position on the Confederate flag: Take it down.

On Monday, Sanders called on South Carolina to remove the flag from the Statehouse grounds.

“The flag is a relic of our nation’s stained racial history. It should come down,” Sanders said. “The tragedy in Charleston, as terrible as it is, has given the people of South Carolina an opportunity to finally turn a page on our past. The flag belongs in a museum.”

A day after the massacre, Sanders postponed a planned weekend trip to Charleston, urging his supporters to make a donation to the church.

“The Charleston church killings are a tragic reminder of the ugly stain of racism that still taints our nation,“ Sanders said in a statement on Capitol Hill. "This senseless violence fills me and I believe all Americans with outrage, with disgust and a deep, deep sadness. The hateful killing of nine people who were praying inside a church is a horrific reminder that, while we have made significant progress in advancing civil rights in this country, we are far from eradicating racism.”

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'E')specially for 6

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders

• Position on the Confederate flag: Take it down.

The flag belongs in a museum.”

[PrestonSturges]

Funny thing about Arlington is that it was Robert E. Lee's plantation. When Union soldiers died in the military hospitals, Lincoln was asked where the dead should go and he said "Bury them in Robert E. Lee's rose garden." Or maybe that's just a fable.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'F')unny thing about Arlington is that it was Robert E. Lee's plantation. When Union soldiers died in the military hospitals, Lincoln was asked where the dead should go and he said "Bury them in Robert E. Lee's rose garden." Or maybe that's just a fable.

[Plantagenet]

Its taken 150 years to undo all the damage the Ds did.

Slavery, treason, the civil war, jim crow laws, segregation----all were done by the Ds.

And putting the confederate flag on southern state flags and flying the confederate flag at the state house? Another legacy of the Ds when they booted out the Rs after reconstruction. The Ds were so nutty about their confederate flags that they even put laws requiring the flying of the confederate flags in the state constitutions of southern states---thats why its do darn hard to get rid of the confederate flags in the south.

Its good to see Rs like Gov. Niki Haley removing the Confederate flag from the statehouse grounds.

[Lore]

Except the old Dixiecrats became Republicans. They were the original Tea Party types.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 't')he old Dixiecrats became Republicans.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 't')he old Dixiecrats became Republicans.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'F')unny thing about Arlington is that it was Robert E. Lee's plantation. When Union soldiers died in the military hospitals, Lincoln was asked where the dead should go and he said "Bury them in Robert E. Lee's rose garden." Or maybe that's just a fable.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
').....people who are actively seeking voter suppression to make it harder for minorities to vote. Sounds like Jim Crow to me.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
').....people who are actively seeking voter suppression to make it harder for minorities to vote. Sounds like Jim Crow to me.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'F')unny thing about Arlington is that it was Robert E. Lee's plantation. When Union soldiers died in the military hospitals, Lincoln was asked where the dead should go and he said "Bury them in Robert E. Lee's rose garden." Or maybe that's just a fable.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')Jim Crow laws are any that restrict the civil rights and civil liberties of minorities. Specifically those of color.

[Lore]

"Were", what about now? That's history, the Republicans adopted these people starting back in 1948 and when the GOP tried to go moderate they again evolved into the Tea Party. They are once again trying to resurrect that fanciest state. You are now part of the Jim Crow revolution!

If you want to bring up the past we may as well throw out everything the founding fathers did since a lot of them were slave owners. It's time for you to repent Plant and disavow your conservative credentials! Baptize yourself to the side of light and goodness;...the water is fine.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', ' ')You are now part of the Jim Crow revolution!

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', ' ')You are now part of the Jim Crow revolution!

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '.').. you are part of the new emerging Jim Crow advocates!

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '.').. you are part of the new emerging Jim Crow advocates!

[Sixstrings]

You know.. I just feel like.. the far left media just REALLY pounced, and that the red states are already reeling from so much change lately.

ACA, gay marriage SCOTUS decisions, acceptance of transgender. And I'm for all of that, that's liberty and freedom so okay -- but ALL groups should be respected too, and that means "rednecks" and country folk and gentile southerners that aren't the least bit racist but are just in a historical society and maybe they do geneology and trace their family roots back, or maybe it's like a lot of the guys we've got in the US military where southern history is very deep in the national American military institutions and culture and history.

It's NOT all racism any more than America is all racism -- I'm just bewildered by everyone going after a full 50% of our American history and trying to root it out like that.

Do you guys know your American history? Do you know about Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, President Andrew Jackson? Do you realize that our ancestors were not perfect by modern standards, and do you understand we today are not perfect either? You do not solve imperfection with a ban hammer, that's fascism, and I don't like it even if it's from the left.

The civil war was a FAMILY fight, often within families themselves and one son fighting for the union and the other for the confederacy.

It's always been like this from the Revolution on up, blue states and red states, north and south. But we're all Americans and we have to respect each other.

The North never could have won the revolution without the South. At least half of our greatest Americans in history, are Southerners. The reason there are so many military instiutitons and bases named after Southerners in history, and statues, is because Robert E. Lee was a great AMERICAN *before* the family had a fight and fell into disastrous civil war.

The Union had five slave owning states in it. There were slave owning union generals. Bottom line it was a blue state red state fight and here we are still arguing today -- the lesson should be for respect and reconciliation, coming together not either side pouncing and piling on.

We've had 150 years of painful difficult reconciliation, don't go stirring up sh*t that wasn't there and digging up all the bones now.

A GENUINE civil rights issue would be something like voting rights restrictions in certain states. NOT Robert E. Lee or Thomas Jefferson, for that matter.

A lesson I have learned from this whole thing:

* I'm still a Democrat, with all the liberal causes, but just for my own opinions I'm going to be more sensitive now to Republican base type people. And Christians. And I don't like guns, but I respect the 2nd amendment. We can surely do something sensible like magazine clip limits or background checks or something -- but OTOH, holy sh*t after this whole week of everyone pouncing on the South I can see why people like Cog are so worried about moving goalposts and that a far left avalanche really could just take away all gun rights and respect for religious rights.

I know none of you agree with me, but I have to agree with Cog on this issue -- the far left "eco nazi" PC thing is spooky, a bit. And THAT is what makes the other side so stubborn, you guys scare them about moving goalposts, like you will just come after their dead buried great great great grandfather too.

I think everyone is okay about the flags going down at the capitols, I'm 100% okay with that, my state did that like 20 darn years ago. And it was not an issue, because we didn't have a bunch of far left yelling at us like a pack of hyenas trying to pull our monuments up.

It's not about the flags at the capitols, what has some people worried was how fast the goalposts moved and suddenly the far left wants to dig up Robert E. Lee.

I'm sorry for yet another lecture -- I just agree with Jim Webb and Ed Schultz, whatever they think then I'm with them on it, I know they care about American history and culture and basic red state culture (country music, Thomas Jefferson, collard greens and grits) yet I know they aren't racists.

People that are on the left, just be aware of how red staters / conservative types are feeling, with all the change lately. Just don't go overboard and overreach all the time. It's like when the Pope came out for climate change, I actually saw some on this forum saying -- withing 4 hours of the announcement -- that he hadn't gone far enough.

You have to be aware of this, not to just hammer that other side, and be trying for unity and reconciliation not creating culture wars over flags and Robert E. Lee, ya know?

p.s. another way to look at it -- it's not racism, it's like how Texans are with their alamo and that flag. It's just a regional thing, it does not mean they are racists or not patriotic Americans. Or maybe Texans do need to move forward on a lot of issues, but just don't ever connect that to the Alamo and try to take it down, ya know?

[Sixstrings]

Just to put a finer point on things:

* I've never felt bad about the confederate flag when I see it in the historical context, I think it used to fly over monuments like forts etc. That's just history. I like history. I seem to recall one fort my state has, it flew every flag that's ever flown over it, Spanish and union jack flags too.

* My view on it is really like my view on guns -- how I don't like guns and don't want any, but yet I can understand that not all gun owners are bad people. That's just the reality folks, and it's the same with the confederate flag.

But anyway, the confederate flag is not flown at any public monuments anymore, in my state, and no government places. This has never been an issue, we did this 20 years ago. I've never been some rebel flag person, I'll tell you guys the truth, if I have bigotry it's against fellow whites that are "rednecks." I swear to you that's the truth, I actually have to check myself on my own bigotry toward "rednecks."

But rednecks are good people, it's just complicated, if you go around the South it's actually known for hospitality and how NICE people are.

Whereas people in blue state areas are often quite RUDE.

I don't want anyone thinking I'm a racist, I actually do hear racist things said sometimes. I used to have a neighbor that was Italian from New York -- and incredibly, shockingly, bigot-sounding in just the things he would say -- oh my god. (like archie bunker times ten)

And he could tell I was not comfortable with that, at all, and he said to me "I'm sorry, do you have black family?" I'm tellin' you guys the truth on this. So look folks, there is a lot of racism up North too, among certain groups.

And then I've got "redneck" family that actually don't ever say anything racist. And then one time when some Indiana relatives came in, we were talking about President Obama -- and I was just SHOCKED at the things they were saying, holy sh*t.

So -- that's where I'm coming from -- but look, having said all that, Robert E. Lee was an honorable good man. And so was Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. Just don't take all the monuments away. As a voter I'm totally okay there are no rebel flags flying at public places -- but I wouldn't vote to sandblast a confederate symbol off a monument that's been there over a hundred years, either.

Things like school names -- change those, that's understandable, those are public schools.

Some of the confederate generals were not so honorable men like Lee was. And, there were a lot of horrible types on the union side, as well. And if you know your american history, then you know every figure from history was complicated.

Even LBJ used the "N" word, it was still the prejudice of the day, even though he changed and pushed civil rights forward.

And I already said this way upthread, but if you listen to old clips of President Obama 8 years ago, and Hillary Clinton back in the 90s, BOTH of them sound really anti-gay, by today's standards. (just their tone, how they had a tone of disgust about gay marriage)

But that doesn't mean you take their names out of history.