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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Peak Oil-More Than Meets the Eye

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Peak Oil-More Than Meets the Eye

Postby SimpleLiving » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 12:50:24


Peak oil is not just about, well, Peak Oil. It is a confluence of geopolitical, economic, environmental, cultural and supply/demand issues. One must avoid the trap of "not seeing the forest for the trees." Focusing on just Peak Oil is like staring at one dot in a pointiistic painting and not being able to appreciate the painting as a whole. There are a number of things coming together at this time that will exacerbate the production/demand problem that we as a world now face. Consider the following and this is not a comprehensive list:

1) Supply vs. demand and declining oil and gas fields worldwide. Most are past peak. Many countries now IMPORTING OIL, GAS AND GASOLINE.
2) The real estate bubble that will, like other past markets in the recent past, burst. (Ie.-gold and other precious minerals, Internet, stock market several times for various reasons etc.)
3) The USA's propensity to invade, either politically, economically or militarily other countries to secure our unquenchable thirst for fossile fuels.
4) An inevitable downturn in our economy and the worlds economy as a whole due to the price of rising energy costs. Ie.-Inflation and stagflation.
5) The absurd and dangerous level of debt carried by the US government, consumers and businesses (All of which is fiat currency not backed-up by any tangible commodity such as gold, oil, gas etc.)
6) The necessity of our US economy to grow at all costs ad infinitum (Loss of jobs, companies close, more bankruptcies, stock markets tumble, consumer confidence ((read this "materialistic consumerism") free-falls, political and social unrest etc.) ).
7)Interest rates must remain low to stimulate economic growth but that same economic growth causes a supply shortage in oil and specifically, its derivatives (ie.- diese, K2 etc.which we will see this winter (Current production worldwide is 84 million barrels. By the mid to late fall, we, as a world, will need an extra two to four million barrels per day. This is one of the primary factors that is driving the upward oil and gasoline increases-basic economics 101. On the other precarious hand, low interest rates stimulate growth thereby increasing our energy consumption due to increased use of fossile fuels. It is a catch 22 to the MAX!!! Pain now or far, far greater pain this winter and beyond.
8) The strength of the euro and its' inevitalbe replacement of the dollar as the premier reserve currency not to mention the accepted currency for trading in oil. (Iraq changed its petrodollars to euro dollars just before Gulf War II. Iran threatened as did South Korea, to do the same.)
9) The lack of sufficient refineries in the US and the world-especially to handle heavy, sour crude with its' attendant heavy metals.
10) Venezuela's socialist/Marxist government. They are increasingly hostile to the United States (Do a Google search) and are now choosing to use their oil, coal and natural gas to stimulate their economy and growth BEFORE considerations of exports to other countries. Also, their disdain for the US and its' "greedy, capitalistic, consumerism based culture" has driven their politicians to make energy export deals with China among others (Cuba etc.). Venezuela is a MAJOR exporter of oil and gas and gasoline to the United States.
11) The record trade deficit, primarily with China but also the rest of the world. Remember, any of you, when most products were made in the USA? Manufacturing, textiles and information technology jobs are moving overseas at an unprecented and destructive rate. Outsourcing is now the catch-word of business to the extreme detriment of US workers, national security, US mid-term prosperity and the overall lifestyle of we Americans as a wholel. "As goes the USA, so goes the world."
12) The US peak of natual gas. An Exxon Mobile executive acknowledged this very recently. Ie.- more imports from mostly Canada at a higher price. FYI-Natural gas is highly used in the West for heating, and electricity generation because, especially in California, with its' tough environmental laws, it is a far cleaner/less polluting source of fossil fuel. In addition, natural gas is used to a great extent in the generation of electricity in most power plants across our nation.
13) Natural disasters impacting the supply of oil and gas.
14) Wars and political unrest on the same.
15) Ahmadinahad, Irans new, hardline conservative leader says that he does NOT need the West (Iran is quite friendly, economically and politically, with the EU, China and of course, Russia.). Russia is currently building reactors and will suppy the fuel to power them for the regime in Iran. Six to ten more nuclear plants coming on line over the coming years. They will have little incentive to sell oil and gas to the United States, the "Great Satan" as they call us.
I could go on however I won't. The proverbial horse dung is going to hit the fan and I do not say this lightly. Analyze, assess, accept, conserve and prepare. It's the best that we can do. Live a life a voluntary simplicity and forsake the industrial, "keep of with the Jones" world.

Some college but mostly self-educated. I left the "rat race" several years back as I saw where it would inevetibly lead. Presently, I own two businesses of my own-both eco-friendly and sustainable after the crash. I live a life of voluntary simplicity(NO not deprivation, making due with my expenses on hand and NO credit. Others should try it as it isn't all that "bad" and they will be preparing for what is to come in the not so distant future.

Gary M. Powell
Last edited by SimpleLiving on Thu 30 Jun 2005, 17:39:48, edited 3 times in total.
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Nice summary of what's said here.

Postby Dvanharn » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 13:15:50

Since this is your first post here, welcome. You have nicely distilled information from a lot of the subjects discussed here. It is indeed a complex set of issues, although peak oil (and other resource limitations) are the one set of factors that have no obvious mitigation.

Did you get your information from reading here at peakoil.com before you posted, or from other sources?

Dave
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Postby gnm » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 13:18:30

I believe the Exxon guy said it was a north american peak of natural gas production - in other words Canada had peaked as well....

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Postby Tyler_JC » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 13:41:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'I') believe the Exxon guy said it was a north american peak of natural gas production - in other words Canada had peaked as well....

8O
-G


Every now and then I read one of those biofuel articles and get optimistic...and then sh*t like this happens. 8O 8O 8O
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Postby killJOY » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 13:56:59

another dude from Maine. Welcome.


Doesn't this weather suck?
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Peak Oil-More Than Meets the Eye

Postby MonteQuest » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 14:09:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SimpleLiving', '
') Peak oil is not just about, well, Peak Oil. It is a confluence of geopolitical, economic, environmental, cultural and supply/demand issues. One must avoid the trap of "not seeing the forest for the trees." Focusing on just Peak Oil is like staring at one dot in a pointiistic painting and not being able to appreciate the painting as a whole. There are a number of things coming together at this time that will exacerbate the production/demand problem that we as a world now face.


Welcome to the forum! Yes, I quite agree. See my thread:

The Peak Oil Perfect Storm
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1514.html
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Don't Count On The Euro Just Yet

Postby Spideykid » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 17:04:42

<< The strength of the euro and its' inevitalbe replacement of the dollar as the premier reserve currency not to mention the accepted currency for trading in oil. (Iraq changed its petrodollars to euro dollars just before Gulf War II. Iran threatened as did South Korea, to do the same.) >>

The European Union is nice and all but they have a long ways to go before they hammer out all their differences if they ever do, plus the EU imported 15 mill bpd in 2001, so the lack of oil is going to hurt them almost as much as it does us.

When oil production can't meet demand almost everybody is going to suffer.

Very few people are self reliant, besides as most of you like to say were all tied together in this mess.
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No, an amalgamation of sources

Postby SimpleLiving » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 18:18:21

Dvanhan asked of me:

"Did you get your information from reading here at peakoil.com before you posted, or from other sources?"

The answer is this: I have been studying on a very indepth level the issues of geopolitics, the economy (Both that of the United States and abrod), environmental issues, Peak Oil, cultural, sustainability in the first world, the stock and commodities markets and a host of other issues. Some of my knowledge has, admittedly come from Peak Oil.com and other "Peak" websites though I have only recently found out about its' exixtence (about two weeks ago, in fact).My study of the Peak OIl situation goes back to February of 2004. The rest of it goes back to the ripe old age of six years old (thanks to my maternal grandmother).
To answer the second part of your question, largely from other sources and simple eveyday observation. I have never read a SINGLE book regarding Peak Oil-all it being from authoritative sources.
Lastly.thank you for the welcome and your kind words regarding my post. I hope my post helps those sitting on the oily peak oil fence!

Regards,
Gary M. Powell
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Postby Tyler_JC » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 18:43:40

SimpleLiving

Do you own a microphone?

Would you have any interest in discussing Peak Oil and its related consequences in real time on TeamSpeak?

Even if you don't own a microphone (which can be purchased for a very modest sum at any electronics store), I invite you to sit in on any of the conversations we TeamSpeakers have.

To see how many people are in TeamSpeak at a given time, look on the left of your screen at the box entitled PeakSpeak.

Aaron, Dan, Jato, GNM, Ayoob, Crude Intentions, O'Neil, and many others will agree when I say, PeakSpeak is a valuable tool to break the isolation that being Peak Oil Aware sometimes brings.

So I beseech you to test it out, at least for a day or two. Who knows, you might like it.
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Your ability to condense the complexity is an asset, Gary.

Postby Dvanharn » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 01:31:48

I tend to be scattered at times (a lifelong problem), and this site has posts all over the map of subjects both related and unrelated to peak oil that make it too easy for me to waste my time going off on tangents.

Montequest and others here have done a decent job of fostering discussions on the dependency of our system on growth, and how the fiat currency system is so flawed, but it doesn't reach all of the dreamers. The economics related to peakoil and potential societal collapse - discussed in your items 6, 7 and 11 - is a key area that many cornucopians don't seem to grasp. Even if there are technical solutions to some of the energy supply issues, the growth-based capitalistic system must, by it's very nature, continue to grow during the period of transitioning to petroleum substitutes. If the whole economic/monetary system collapses and recession or depression ensues, there may be a bounce or two in the economy, but I don't think that a sustained recovery will happen. All one has to do is observe how the predictions of Bush and his cabinet (especially Cheney and Rumsfeld) have failed to materialize in Iraq, and then you will realize that there isn't much hope for an intelligent, workable approach to dealing with economic collapse and resource shortages on a national government level in a manner that will benefit society.

I hope you will become a regular here with your demonstrated interest in tying together the many pieces of the complex set of problems we face.

Dave
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Re: Peak Oil-More Than Meets the Eye

Postby MagnoliaFan » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 00:22:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SimpleLiving', ' ')I could go on however I won't. The proverbial horse dung is going to hit the fan and I do not say this lightly. Analyze, assess, accept, conserve and prepare. It's the best that we can do. Live a life a voluntary simplicity and forsake the industrial, "keep of with the Jones" world


Welcome to the forum and thank you for the great post. You've touched upon many of the subjects already discussed but you summed up 99% of the problems involving peak oil quite nicely.
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Postby jdmartin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 01:14:54

Good post, here are some points of contention, expansion, or interest.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')nterest rates must remain low to stimulate economic growth


Actually, in my opinion we have tried to keep interest rates low for as long as possible to simply maintain the economy rather than stimulate growth. I think lots of people know, though few are saying, that when all these mortgage refinances, house flipping, and insane bidding wars for homes are over (all a result of the low interest rates), the gig is going to be up. Most people I know these days don't have a pot to piss in other than their "line of credit" from the house. With credit cards maxed out and real income falling (or nonexistent, for the unemployed), who's going to buy them TV's?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he strength of the euro and its' inevitalbe replacement of the dollar as the premier reserve currency not to mention the accepted currency for trading in oil.


Most of Europe is just as screwed as we are, economically. The lender nations of Europe are heavily invested in US funds; when we go, the euro's going to go too. There is no way you can destroy 25% of the world's consumption and everyone else go on their merry way. As for the currency, the Saudis et al have a vested interest in maintaining the value of the dollar as long as possible - they hold enormous amounts of US debt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')anufacturing, textiles and information technology jobs are moving overseas at an unprecented and destructive rate.


100% agreed with IT jobs. Textiles left long ago - only the dinosaurs are still here. Anything that can be reasonably manufactured far away has also left - only the higher skilled jobs that aren't so easy to get someone to do for a dime an hour, and the end products that are difficult or expensive to ship, are still here and intent on staying.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey will have little incentive to sell oil and gas to the United States


As previously stated, we're all tied together. You cannot look at one point (i.e. Iran) without considering the whole picture. If we go, they're going with us because EVERYONE is going with us. The US consumes 25% of everything in the world. You simply cannot destroy that much consumption and leave everyone else standing. Especially when you consider that you'd be destroying an economy of a country that has lots of nuclear weapons, conventional arms, political lunatics, and the will to bring a lot of wrath on a lot of people.

Anyway, enjoyed your post and looking forward to your continuing posts here.
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Re: Peak Oil-More Than Meets the Eye

Postby AdamB » Sat 23 Aug 2025, 10:31:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SimpleLiving', 'P')eak oil is not just about, well, Peak Oil. It is a confluence of geopolitical, economic, environmental, cultural and supply/demand issues.

This was the hope at the time, wasn't it?

Th Unified Field Theory of Peak Oil.

For starters on the technical side, you are wrong. Peak oil is just a thing. An event. One that has happened before in most cases, but one day, finally, the geology won't be able to support doing it again.

A simple concept.

But people who subscribe to your theory, the Unified Field Theory of Peak Oil....they are called Doomers. End Times halfwits. Apocalytians. They believe as you describe.

Peak oil is just the holy grail event to trigger their favorite end times scenario is all. Which puts folks who think the way you do into the same bucket as Branch Davidians. Cults in general. Survivalists. Conspiracy theorists. Heaven's Gaters. Think...Jim Jones....without the Kool-Aid. Maybe Mormons, now THOSE folks are diehard preppers. Others that form a sub-cult where they are child molestors and whatnot.

I don't think peak oilers have moved into the child molestor category yet.

But they tend to be about as dumbass uninformed and ignorant of the basics of oil and gas production and the geosciences upon which the idea is based as possible. Because you don't have to ask complicated questions to figure out the game being played. John Denver on this very website figured it out in real time by doing one thing that the cultists don't. He asked questions, and sought answers. Knew it was a crock. This is how you explain why some damn smart people, like Colin and the Italian college professor and Hirsch have been so easily led astray. They decided to BELIEVE first, and then justify that belief with the experience and knowledge they had to make it sound palatable to those less educated and unfamiliar with the details of the sciences necessary to turn the topic into a joke.

This website being a treasure trove of the history of this particular cult.

For the record you need to put together 3 specialties, sciences, to not just understand but figure out peak oil. Engineering, generally related to oil and gas production, the geologic related to discovery process modeling and resource methods of estimation and mathematics, and economics.

Understand those as they relate to oil and gas development, and its all easy peasy.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

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