[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
But you know what? Even if I became convinced that you AGW fanboys were entirely correct, then my priorities would not change. Compared to overpopulation, the various resource depletions, and nuclear war, it's just not important. Once we have solid solutions in place for the first three or four top priorities, then we can worry about AGW.

[Pops]

Actually we did start doing something 40 years ago, chemical birth control gave women the choice.

[ennui2]

Ibon, you'll also never have total agreement on when we've passed enough tipping points beyond which there is no "human agency". This is why the debate is splintering into bright vs. dark greenies, with environmentalists becoming increasingly annoyed not by denialists (who are incorrigible) but by bright green optimists (like Graeme) who think we can technofix our way out of these problems no matter how advanced these problems are, up to and including building biodomes or space arks or what have you in order to abandon or protect ourselves from an inhospitable earth that is of our own making.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'A')ctually we did start doing something 40 years ago, chemical birth control gave women the choice.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'I')bon, you'll also never have total agreement on when we've passed enough tipping points beyond which there is no "human agency". This is why the debate is splintering into bright vs. dark greenies, with environmentalists becoming increasingly annoyed not by denialists (who are incorrigible) but by bright green optimists (like Graeme) who think we can technofix our way out of these problems no matter how advanced these problems are, up to and including building biodomes or space arks or what have you in order to abandon or protect ourselves from an inhospitable earth that is of our own making.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he exponential increase of the human population that this permitted far outweighed the benefits of contraception.
Already back then there were some early "Montequest" dissenters who begged to differ.

[Pops]

Here is an interesting post kind of along my outlook:
https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/populat ... c-reversal

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')stand in front of a hot stove close/long enough and you will understand the chances of getting burned.

I know this simple fact won't penetrate your brilliant engineer brilliance, but I can say I tried.

[KaiserJeep]

Thank you very much for your thoughtless insults. Or perhaps they are thoughtful insults, in which case, same to you.

Pstarr, the atmospheric carbon dioxide is one of many factors in the equation of how much solar heat is reflected vs. absorbed. Others include the albedo of the Earth, with all of mankind's alterations (concrete vs. forest, crops vs. prairie, irrigation vs. desert,etc. etc.) Nor is carbon dioxide the most effective greenhouse gas, that would be water vapor. Then there are alterations to the water/land mix brought about by the draining of wetlands and the creation of man-made lakes. Then there is the amount of clouds in the atmosphere, and how high they are.

The case that one factor - atmospheric carbon dioxide - drives temperatures and dominates all other factors, is not made. In fact, there is no reason to believe that if we stopped burning FF's, the temperature increase would vary from the natural Milanković number.

Lastly, nobody has yet constructed a climate model that successfully relates global temperatures to atmospheric carbon dioxide. If you think they have, then link to the model and we will discuss it, because the acid test is this: when fed historical carbon dioxide levels it should predicts the resultant temperatures. You are tracking carbon dioxide levels in the hundreds of ppm (I.e. six significant digits), the resultant temperature data should have the same order of magnitude accuracy. (In actuality, many climate models get the sign of the temperature change wrong, none have ever offered more than 2 significant places +/_ 1 digit accuracy.)

If you can't do the math, then link to the peer review comments where the model has survived inspection.

If you can't do that, you don't have a case that AGW is anything but an unconfirmed theory. Plus groupthink.

In the spirit of this thread, I find all of YOU ignoramuses.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'L')astly, nobody has yet constructed a climate model that successfully relates global temperatures to atmospheric carbon dioxide. If you think they have, then link to the model and we will discuss it, because the acid test is this: when fed historical carbon dioxide levels it should predicts the resultant temperatures.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'O')nce everybody thought that electromagnetic waves were vibrations in an invisible "ether" which pervaded everything - until quantuum electromagnetics.

[Rod_Cloutier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')THESE ARE ACTUAL COMPLAINTS RECEIVED BY "THOMAS COOK VACATIONS" FROM DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS:

1. "On my holiday to Goa in India, I was disgusted to find that almost every restaurant served curry. I don't like spicy food."

2. "They should not allow topless sunbathing on the beach. It was very distracting for my husband who just wanted to relax."

3. "We went on holiday to Spain and had a problem with the taxi drivers as they were all Spanish."

4. "We booked an excursion to a water park but no-one told us we had to bring our own swimsuits and towels. We assumed it would be included in the price."

5. "The beach was too sandy. We had to clean everything when we returned to our room."

6. "We found the sand was not like the sand in the brochure. Your brochure shows the sand as white but it was more yellow."

7. "It's lazy of the local shopkeepers in Puerto Vallartato close in the afternoons. I often needed to buy things during 'siesta' time -- this should be banned."

8. "No-one told us there would be fish in the water. The children were scared."

9. "Although the brochure said that there was a fully equipped kitchen, there was no egg-slicer in the drawers."

10. "I think it should be explained in the brochure that the local convenience store does not sell proper biscuits like custard creams or ginger nuts."

11. "The roads were uneven and bumpy, so we could not read the local guide book during the bus ride to the resort. Because of this, we were unaware of many things that would have made our holiday more fun."

12. "It took us nine hours to fly home from Jamaica to England. It took the Americans only three hours to get home. This seems unfair."

13. "I compared the size of our one-bedroom suite to our friends' three-bedroom and ours was significantly smaller."

14. "The brochure stated: 'No hairdressers at the resort.' We're trainee hairdressers and we think they knew and made us wait longer for service."

15. "When we were in Spain, there were too many Spanish people there. The receptionist spoke Spanish, the food was Spanish. No one told us that there would be so many foreigners."

16. "We had to line up outside to catch the boat and there was no air-conditioning."

17. "It is your duty as a tour operator to advise us of noisy or unruly guests before we travel."

18. "I was bitten by a mosquito. The brochure did not mention mosquitoes."

19. "My fiancée and I requested twin-beds when we booked, but instead we were placed in a room with a king bed. We now hold you responsible and want to be re-reimbursed for the fact that I became pregnant. This would not have happened if you had put us in the room that we booked."

BE AWARE ...

THEY WALK AMONG US and THEY VOTE!

[DesuMaiden]

It is better to be ignorant than misinformed. That is because ignorance can be defined as not knowing anything. You are less likely to commit crimes while being ignorant. But being misinformed can be defined as knowing incorrect knowledge, and with incorrect knowledge, you are more likely to commit crimes.

For example, if you were ignorant and have no idea what homosexuals are, then you will not commit crimes against them. How could you perform crimes against homosexuals if you have no idea of what they are? But if you have negative and misinformed knowledge of homosexuals, then you will likely commit crimes against them.

You have the right to be ignorant. But you do not have the right to be misinformed.

[sparky]

.
" You have the right to be ignorant. But you do not have the right to be misinformed."

Desu , this should go on the "Thomas Cook " award ..... ignorance is not a right granted , it is a subjective assessment

not having the "right" to be misinformed doesn't seems to make any sense to me except as a Zen Koan

Some people criticize Kaiser Jeep for his considered opinions ,
there certainly is a wilful ignorance of the skeptics arguments and a lumping of all opinions under the insulting term of "deniers"
this alone would make any free thinking person examine closely the basis of "Anthropogenic global warming "

[C8]

CO2 definitely leads to heat capture- that's undisputed by even skeptics. The question is how much of warming a result of CO2, methane, etc.? Air is a gas and only a small percent of the total stored world temperature- the oceans are a dense liquid and hold over 95% of all temperature (I read this somewhere but it makes sense). We have only been tracking ocean temps very recently so we don't know how much of warming may be due exactly to CO2 vs. underwater interaction with the heated undersea lava.

Given the parallel nature of warming charts to CO2 emissions I am betting CO2 is the culprit. Too much mirroring too long to be explained by coincidence.

But the US is not really serious about reducing CO2 and cannot stop the rest of the world from burning CO2 anyway- whatever we accomplish will be undone by some other nation. In any case GW is self re-enforcing at this point anyway. The only path out from here is to put aside the political fighting and unite in funding science to find a low cost way of removing CO2 from the atmosphere. I do not think this is impossible and nobody has ever presented evidence proving it can't be done. Its our only real hope really- everything else is too little too late.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', ' ')The only path out from here is to put aside the political fighting and unite in funding science to find a low cost way of removing CO2 from the atmosphere. I do not think this is impossible and nobody has ever presented evidence proving it can't be done. Its our only real hope really- everything else is too little too late.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', ' ')The only path out from here is to put aside the political fighting and unite in funding science to find a low cost way of removing CO2 from the atmosphere. I do not think this is impossible and nobody has ever presented evidence proving it can't be done. Its our only real hope really- everything else is too little too late.