[ennui2]

You know what bothers me the most about my most recent bout of coming back here on a regular basis?

No, it's not my sparring with Planty or pstarr. That's to be expected. It's about KJ. And it's not even about KJ's overall AGW denial. I gave KJ a homework assignment to watch Incredible Journey of Oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e44ydPIQGSc

This is one of what I feel are the top 2-3 most important documentaries about doom. Earth 2100 and Project Home being the others I'd strongly recommend.

What I feel is most important about this is the way it explains the interrelationship between AGW and peak oil by looking at the history of the planet. The planet basically terraformed itself via life. And part of that terraforming is what resulted in massive carbon sequestration out of the atmosphere and into fossil fuels. By burning all that trapped carbon, we are turning the clock back to the primordial nature of the atmosphere, one that can't support complex life as we know it. I don't have an actual minute/second cue point in Youtube where this point is driven home, but when I watched it, everything finally clicked for me. I was already a doomer, but I then realized the whole alpha and omega of the planet being a closed system and the carbon cycle.

When I assigned this homework to KJ, I was not just trying to attack him. I really wanted him to open his eyes some more. Instead, he totally ignored my request, and then ignored all my subsequent checking of whether he had watched it. He then proceeded to continue issuing his AGW denial talking points.

To me, this is the very definition of ignorance. He has chosen to ignore data that could challenge his viewpoint. And this is NOT fringe wacko propaganda. This is a straight ahead science documentary.

For all of the time he spends posting AGW denial or wringing his hands about nuclear war and ay-rabs he could have watched this documentary many times over. So it's not that it would take too much of his time. He is just being intellectually lazy and closed-minded.

Now, if he were to just watch it and issue a rebuttal point by point, that would change everything, but by willfully ignoring relevant data, his credibility in any sort of AGW debate is shot to hell.

[KaiserJeep]

I watched that on Monday. I found no new material in it, and nothing especially worth commenting on. It was very one-sided, like so many "documentaries". None of the dissenting scientific opinions were represented. None of the data that seems to disprove carbon-forcing of the climate was discussed. Therefore it rates a "C" grade at best.

It was however an entertaining story with high production values. It reminded me most strongly of the "Planet Earth" series of videos.

Now, one more time for those of you who are completely dense: I don't believe that carbon dioxide forces climate change to any significant degree. I do not even consider CC the top issue we have, it's only a symptom of the #1 issue we have, which is a population overshoot enabled by our fossil fuel "energy slaves".

The #2 issue would be the central theme of the PO.com forum: Fossil Fuel exhaustion and the implications of this. Megadeaths will result. The downslope of the population curve may well be steeper than the upslope.

Compared to the really really serious threat of FF exhaustion, CC is simply unimportant. I'm frankly, tired of trying to enlighten all the closed minds around here. I would rather talk about what we can agree upon, which is we have to find solutions for FF exhaustion. Before we die because we can't burn enough FF's.

Now, if YOU want to debate CC, stand in front of a mirror, and debate yourself. That is not what we are here for at PO.com.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') would rather talk about what we can agree upon, which is we have to find solutions for FF exhaustion. Before we die because we can't burn enough FF's.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ')None of the data that seems to disprove carbon-forcing of the climate was discussed.....

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')one of the dissenting scientific opinions were represented.

[Sixstrings]

@allyouguys

And see, this debate just never ends. It's like a group of people that need to get off an island, but they can't ever build a boat because they're arguing over religion. Just build whatever boat we can all agree on, and move on already. Compromise, neither side being absolutist.

Clean air acts. Clean water. Clean food. Conservation. Mitigation and adaptation. Water issues.

Long term: put a lot of money into space development. Our descendants must break out of the planet earth bottleneck, the same that our ancestors broke out of the African sinai bottleneck.

We have to get back on track now, with space development. We have to make that start, for our descendants to build on. It's like a Columbus thing -- yeah it took a century or two to really get colonization rolling, but it all started with a few ships. Was it profitable, at that time? No. But the profits came, later. Space is the same way. It will be profitable 20 years from now, if we start today.

Europe was actually overcrowded, in the 16th century. The rivers were actually polluted. Much of Europe was actually already deforested. The population needed a frontier, they needed to break out of a bottleneck -- now the planetwide population is in the same situation.

So just build the boat. Stop arguing over religion.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
Now, one more time for those of you who are completely dense: I don't believe that carbon dioxide forces climate change to any significant degree.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ')None of the data that seems to disprove carbon-forcing of the climate was discussed.....

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')nd see, this debate just never ends. It's like a group of people that need to get off an island, but they can't ever build a boat because they're arguing over religion.

[KaiserJeep]

Apparently, we are in agreement that the boat is sinking. I say it is the ever-growing number of passengers, 6X the recommended number for this size boat, that is our #1 concern. The number two concern is that we may not have enough fuel to get to shore and safety. But then there are those who think we should shut off the engine, with the number of passengers still growing, because the exhaust stinks, and the engine is causing the temperature inside the boat to rise to an uncomfortable level.

I agree that the exhaust stinks. I say shutting off the engine is insane.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')Just because the greenhouse effect exists, does not mean that global warming outside the norm occurs because of excess carbon dioxide injected into the atmosphere.

[Pops]

Really not a bad metaphor, KJ.

Personally I'm most worried about all the folks in steerage getting pissed and torching the boat.

[Timo]

Torching the boat is where we're all headed, anyway. That match was lit 200 years ago.

[vox_mundi]

Earth Endangered by New Strain of Fact-Resistant Humans

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Scientists have discovered a powerful new strain of fact-resistant humans who are threatening the ability of Earth to sustain life, a sobering new study reports.

The research, conducted by the University of Minnesota, identifies a virulent strain of humans who are virtually immune to any form of verifiable knowledge, leaving scientists at a loss as to how to combat them.

These humans appear to have all the faculties necessary to receive and process information,” Davis Logsdon, one of the scientists who contributed to the study, said. “And yet, somehow, they have developed defenses that, for all intents and purposes, have rendered those faculties totally inactive.”

More worryingly, Logsdon said, “As facts have multiplied, their defenses against those facts have only grown more powerful.”

While scientists have no clear understanding of the mechanisms that prevent the fact-resistant humans from absorbing data, they theorize that the strain may have developed the ability to intercept and discard information en route from the auditory nerve to the brain. “The normal functions of human consciousness have been completely nullified,” Logsdon said.

While reaffirming the gloomy assessments of the study, Logsdon held out hope that the threat of fact-resistant humans could be mitigated in the future. “Our research is very preliminary, but it’s possible that they will become more receptive to facts once they are in an environment without food, water, or oxygen,” he said.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'R')eally not a bad metaphor, KJ.

Personally I'm most worried about all the folks in steerage getting pissed and torching the boat.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'T')hree more work days, and I'm retired.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
There are times when I could not be bothered to whiz on a burning politician. Today was such a day.

Three more work days, and I'm retired.

[ennui2]

KJ has just moved up a peg I guess by virtue of having at least enough of an attention span to actually watch the damn thing. But to watch it and then shrug it off so casually in favor of current AGW "it's happening but it's a natural cycle" flavor of denial is indeed cognitive dissonance worthy of textbook analysis.

Again, it would be one thing if he were a corny, but to keep stomping his feet about peak-oil/overshoot (which is a problem of macro level scale of ecological/resource draw-down) and yet disregard AGW (which is a problem of macro level scale, that being industrial pollution caused by billions of humans drawing down those resources) is a blind-spot of the worst order.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this documentary brings these two halves together so they fit perfectly. Once you understand limits to growth, I don't see how you can quake in your boots regarding peak-oil and overpopulation and yet not see that CO2 is a key component in the pollution variable of the LTG equation.

And then for this thread to trail off with yuk yuks about retirement and politics is par for the course. Amused to death with smalltalk.

[KaiserJeep]

ennui2, I don't want to seem unkind, but I worry about the things that matter in order of priority, and I rate CC as #3 or #4. I run out of minutes in the day before I reach that one.

But you know what? Even if I became convinced that you AGW fanboys were entirely correct, then my priorities would not change. Compared to overpopulation, the various resource depletions, and nuclear war, it's just not important. Once we have solid solutions in place for the first three or four top priorities, then we can worry about AGW.

Meanwhile, I'm moving North of where I live now, arranging to have enough site-generated power to run A/C if I want to, and insulating the he!! out of my new house, and I really don't give a damn about AGW, after thinking it through.

The video was Popular Science at a Junior High School level, but slickly produced. But it will not convince anybody of anything IMHO.

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'e')nnui2, I don't want to seem unkind, but I worry about the things that matter in order of priority, and I rate CC as #3 or #4. I run out of minutes in the day before I reach that one.