[onlooker]

I think Timo, Ibon and I share very similar viewpoints. Let us hope and pray that we humans can learn to live in harmony with each other and nature. We may stand on the threshold of discovering the side of ourselves that is very different then Kudzu Ape. The side which has sporadically existed at times on this Earth, where we lived knowing their were boundaries not to be crossed, when we adhered to living in balance ecologically speaking because we knew we had too. When our voracious appetites were under control. When you could say we were better ethically and more sane beings. I started a post a short time ago, asking where and when people would have liked to live. Perhaps my answer should be the most tantalizingly intriguing and that is sometime in the future when we have discovered within ourselves the part worth fighting for and discarded to a large degree the part which is reprehensible. Yes Agent, perhaps we can be better. It is the only way we can continue as a species if not sadly we will end as 99% of species that have lived on this planet----EXTINCT.

[AgentR11]

There is no if; only when. Genetic drift guarantees it. No species is forever. None. And, its not 99% gone.
Its 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% gone. And all those that remain today, will also be gone, and replaced by their next iteration.
And that is ok. It is as it was always meant to be.
And it will continue on, if the one particularly nasty one doesn't render this little rock in space unsuitable for life as it itself passes away.

[Ibon]

Please watch this video.

http://www.hefty.co/end-of-the-world/

Not a lot Human Beings...... just a bunch of Kudzu Apes

I love to see the themes we speak about here at PO.com having a voice in the communities and emerging generations that use poetry in their own unique venues.

Less Cerebral, more emotional and heartfelt.

Does this lean into spirituality a bit?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')here is no if; only when. Genetic drift guarantees it. No species is forever. None. And, its not 99% gone.
Its 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% gone. And all those that remain today, will also be gone, and replaced by their next iteration.
And that is ok. It is as it was always meant to be.
And it will continue on, if the one particularly nasty one doesn't render this little rock in space unsuitable for life as it itself passes away.

[AgentR11]

I don't buy into the "excuse to do nothing". But I prefer not to think of home sapiens as some sort of final, end product of life on Earth. Even from my religious perspective, I don't see us as penultimate, but rather the first iteration to just barely poke an eyeball over the lid on consciousness; in a divine frame, the first iteration of life suitable for God to reveal himself to in a (more or less) direct fashion. Our existence does not preclude further iterations; though our iteration has achieved the capacity to terminate the iterative process. And there-in lies responsibility.

So for myself, I see through this wide lens, in the same way as a wilderness ethic; leave no trace, or as little trace as possible in our passing. Now, it is true, humanity has with this first touch of technology left much more than just a trace; but for my part, within existing circumstances, I try to reasonably reduce my impact, in each small, unnoticeable instance that I am able. I do however, reject "outrage"; my feeling is that when we act from outrage, we almost always do far more long term harm than good; in that we use "outrage" as an excuse to do something that we know is ineffective or counterproductive; simply because it is an easy response to our outrage, as opposed to correcting the underlying cause.

This may be why overshoot and collapse honestly don't disturb me; its just the natural pattern of a species exposed to excessive, but limited resources. Its ok, its an event of selection pressure and speciation. What bothers me are some of the things we are capable of now that could do great harm in the view of that wide lens, after we are gone. Do we have a right to end the biological Earth (or even expect it to end) when we ourselves, come to an end?

[onlooker]

I think Agent you have hit the right chord, especially with that last question. We in our folly of overshoot should strive in every moment to reduce our impact. It is our absolute ethical responsibility. Not just so that we can continue as a species but to protect all future life on this planet. I see from the vantage point of life as I am alive, the miracle of life which the universe has bought forward. Regardless of if you believe it was divinely ordained or just a magnificent byproduct of this universe, we should have at least have the moral decency to show some deference to this miracle of life. Of course awe and love would be even better. That is why I find is so reprehensible and morally base our callous and foolish disregard for Earth and the trajectory we took and are taking. So that brings this discourse full circle to the original question humanism good or bad? We must confront what we have been and are now before it is too late to change course to be beings worthy of receiving the miracle of life. That puts the onus on us and only us. In that sense Humanism is good if it can do that.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') don't buy into the "excuse to do nothing". But I prefer not to think of home sapiens as some sort of final, end product of life on Earth. Even from my religious perspective, I don't see us as penultimate, but rather the first iteration to just barely poke an eyeball over the lid on consciousness; in a divine frame, the first iteration of life suitable for God to reveal himself to in a (more or less) direct fashion. Our existence does not preclude further iterations; though our iteration has achieved the capacity to terminate the iterative process. And there-in lies responsibility.

[Timo]

A while back i labled humans as the Overshoot Predator. I need to modify that lable a bit. Humans are not a predator, actively seeking out things to destroy. Humans are definitely in overshoot, however, and our predation on this planet has transformed from that need to survive as a simple being, to a macro economic scale, to grow economically at all costs. Another factor that puts humanity in overshoot is the sheer number of us. Ibon referenced the hockey stick of population growth since the dawn of humanity dozens of milenia ago. Humanity is now so large and numerous a species on earth that we can't stop anything we do. We've lost the simple ability to be a natural part of this planet. The planet is our "resource" for economic exploitation. When i was in 3rd grade, i distinctly remember my teacher proclaiming that there were then 4 billion people on this planet. 40 years later, that number has almost doubled. 3 billion people in 40 years when it took 500,000 years to get to the very first million. We are too numerous to co-exist on this planet with each other. We are too numerous to co-exist on this planet with the planet, itself. As Agent correctly suggests, nothing is permanent, including humanity. The reason that i'm not religious is due, in large part, to the fact that any god that would create humanity in his own immage was bat-shit insane when he/she/it calibrated our brains. If, in a fit of frustration with his creation, he flooded the planet in order to start over with a clean slate, those frustrations must have been extremely petty compared to his frustrations with us today, and there were billions fewer people on the planet back then, as well. I feel great sympathy for God, not being able to wipe the slate clean, and start all over again. I guess he's left that task up to us. We must destroy ourselves and eradicate our scurge upon the planet that he created. We are now too numerous and divisive to save, biologically, or spiritually.

Of course, as i've stated many times before, i'm not a spiritual person. I prefer realism to theology. What's real is what we've done, and continue to do. We are a beast than cannot and will not be stopped until a real predator takes us out of the equation. We can pray and hope all we want to, but it's too little, too late.

[Timo]

This guy sums up my perspectives pretty damned well!

http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/388517/the-sucklord-a-bizarre-artist-who-makes-bootleg-toys/?utm_source=nl__link10_032715

Listen to him speak. He brilliantly sums up the world as it really is.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Timo', ' ')We are a beast than cannot and will not be stopped until a real predator takes us out of the equation. We can pray and hope all we want to, but it's too little, too late.

[AgentR11]

Ibon, I think our overshoot is precisely exposure to a new part of the biosphere. Dead algae. Very very old, dead algae. squished, and heated, and squished some more and heated some more... well cooked, which we figured out how to turn into carbohydrates which we can eat and get fat on.

There is nothing special about finding a new source of food, previously immune to exploitation, and then going into bloom and overshoot as a result. Its also not unique that the waste from that overshoot does signficant damage to the biosphere if the overshooting species has enough biomass and/or activity. Good odds that one of the climate shifts of ages past was some stupid fern in the water going nuts and building a giant layer of locked up methane that went POP.

The curve matches. The behavior matches. It is what it is. And it is not unique.

What is unique is our mastery of nuclear fusion and fission. We can, if we choose, now release globally altering amounts of destructive power. So far we have not chosen to do so, and we've backed a little bit away from the end of all things; but that impulse is still there; and the capability will not go away, and the willingness to pretend it can not happen because it hasn't happened yet is a terribly dangerous failing on our part.

All that said, I don't know if application of the wilderness ethic to our custody of the biosphere is likely to catch on. It requires passing on pleasures, comforts, and conveniences that we can easily afford.

[Timo]

My understanding of the OP is that of a phenomena that will eradicate a species through any of the means you listed, but caused by that species' inability to cope with the magnitude of itself. Humans were a humble part of this planet's biospehere for millenia. Now, however, humanity has become the germ infestation, the drought, the famine, the wars, the disease, all of the factors necessary to eradicate not only ourselves, but the rest of life on the planet, as well.

I think we agree that the results of overshoot will not be the end of everything. Life will go on in some form, for a vastly fewer number of species, and each in different capacities. My biggest regret is that humanity so ignorantly cause this mass extinction to occurr. We have acheived a power much worse than any geological disaster could ever achieve. The human-casued mass extinction would be the equivalent of an asteroid hitting the planet, and causing the same thing to happen.

7 billion people, all conscientiously choosing to ignore and deny reality. OP.

[Newfie]

NPR had a bit on this topic this morning. Fairly raving about how we need to have alternative food substitutes as we continue to ramp up our population. No, NOT an April 1 thing, all very straight forward with no irony.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/busin ... mum-effort

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_%28drink%29

[onlooker]

Alternative food to feed growing population ? The Earth is a closed system. We are extracting now as much food as we can from photosynthetic sources. These vitamins and minerals , proteins , fats and carbs have to come from somewhere. Meaning ultimately they are derived from the Earth. Unless we find a way to produce food out of thin air, we cannot support more people, we already are having great difficulty feeding the current amount. Also, by the way fresh water is a limited resource as are a few others needed for agriculture. No more magic to be had. Earth can only give so much.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')
There is nothing special about finding a new source of food, previously immune to exploitation, and then going into bloom and overshoot as a result.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'N')PR had a bit on this topic this morning. Fairly raving about how we need to have alternative food substitutes as we continue to ramp up our population. No, NOT an April 1 thing, all very straight forward with no irony.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/busin ... mum-effort

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_%28drink%29

[onlooker]

Excellent explanation of overshoot and biodiversity Ibon, always appreciative of your expert analysis. Your analysis shows clearly why we have embarked upon the 6th great extinction, we have completely wiped out entire ecosystems so it is no wonder that many species have not been able to adapt. I refer you to a occurrence in the Philippines whereby an area of the Philippines was replanted with trees that were not even native to that area and in an environment without any biodiversity resilience. I asked my girlfriend who originates from that country what exactly is that area then? She of course had no answer because the answer is it is a dead area that only outwardly appears alive, just like some mannequin next to a window to look at. Wondering if you heard about that. I have learned a great deal of the physical ecological situation from posts on this site. Thank you. Although it just shows another aspect of the doom we are enveloping ourselves in.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ') I refer you to a occurrence in the Philippines whereby an area of the Philippines was replanted with trees that were not even native to that area and in an environment without any biodiversity resilience.

[onlooker]

What a coincidence Ibon, yes very nice people, though I would say cling a bit too much to their Catholic traditions, hence their overcrowding because Catholics are forbidden to use birth control. In fact my girlfriend's sister, is a bit shocked why my girlfriend and I have not been married. Oh well. Yes from what my girlfriend tells me very overcrowded there. Just for the heck of it I googled and found actually that Manilla is the most congested city in the planet. Wow. Also, they are prone to devastating flooding due to lack of forests and I am sure much soil erosion occurring. If I may use your term a Kudzu Ape experiment the Philippines.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')ith low enough population numbers we do not need to sacrifice pleasures and comforts and conveniences. Self regulation really doesn't mean sacrificing comforts, conveniences and pleasures. It is the opposite. By not self regulating we are sacrificing comforts, conveniences and pleasures.