[Subjectivist]

Given that all the staff around this board are volunteers giving up their free time to ride herd on the rest we probably don't appreciate them as much as we should.

[sparky]

.
....Cornucopians ? people who believe there will always be enough oil to satisfies demand ?

....Peakers ? people who believe oil extraction , because of geology , will reach a maximum then decrease ?

while both belief seems to be exclusive of each other , they are not , if demand decrease ,

[Pops]

I - we - gave Des a vacation for posting some over the top stuff that amounted to trolling - posting for an emotional reaction. He'll be back. Heck, sometimes his posts were the only peak oil related threads on the list.

Hey Newf, should I come over and stir things up?

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') - we - gave Des a vacation for posting some over the top stuff that amounted to trolling - posting for an emotional reaction. He'll be back. Heck, sometimes his posts were the only peak oil related threads on the list.

Hey Newf, should I come over and stir things up?

[Pops]

I'm jus' kiddin, Newf. I love the boss and the folks over there. I hope they come back around, but I am definitely the corny in that crew. In the real world I'm a doomer; arguing the corn part all the time is tiring.

Closing the board was a good experiment. But boards "naturally" become hidebound as a matter of course and the problem is not keeping them "pure" but keeping them alive, regardless of how much it irks some people to have to revisit "old" topics. "Why don't we close the board to cornies?" was the refrain here from day one.

The reason turns out to be that after a while the echo chamber quits echoing. All the dots have been fretted over so many times they lose their edges and run together; all the emergency sirens just one long drone; all the big black headlines appear as body text — everything can't be biggest, worst, "The End". You need a counterpoint, some ice with the fire, some sweet with the sour, some green with the red; otherwise you can't maintain perspective and divine the difference between a dot and static.

Besides, if all you ever hear is the echo of your own opinion you eventually begin to believe your own schtick.

We have banned some cornies — but we have banned some uber-doomers too. The key criteria being contribution. We are a "member supported" forum, if the membership doesn't provide some original content we are just another Snip-Link Parasite with a Ditto-Head comment box full of +1s. The partisan eye-poker whose only contribution is name calling, snark and trolling for a reaction (as in this thread in fact); is unlikely to make it here over the long haul.

Opinion is free, everyone has at least one. What is valuable to boards like our's is analysis of news rather than just selectively copying and pasting previously copied and pasted headlines as a stand-in for actual reasoned arguments. Even better is original, researched ideas that others can chew on, critique, build on and incorporate into their own outlook. That's our stock in trade; not playground cliques and pompous insults.

[onlooker]

Wow Pops that is very insightful, which is why I enjoy this website, it involves intelligent discourse and seems to lack the vitriol characteristic of other sites I have perused. I truly appreciate the Moderators-Administrators. You guys are great in keeping this site a useful venue for interesting and engaging discussions of a diverse array of topics. Thanks again.

[Cog]

Cornie's predictions of abundance have been a lot more accurate than doomer's predictions of shortage. Especially when it come to oil production. Among other things.

[Newfie]

I don't know Cog. Kinda a wide open statement, and a lot depends upon viewpoint and how you define "abundance."

Perhaps a stupid analogy, but......you have an abundance of fuel in your car, the engine runs fine, right up until it doesn't. Then it's dead!

This thread seems to have narrowed its view to considering energy supplies, I tend to take a broader view. But even with oil is there anyone here who is arguing that it will not run out eventually?

All you are arguing about is how to read the fuel gauge.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'C')ornie's predictions of abundance have been a lot more accurate than doomer's predictions of shortage. Especially when it come to oil production. Among other things.

[dolanbaker]

We need a counterpoint otherwise the discussions would completely ignore the fact that the real world isn't all doom and without opportunity. In reality, for at least 60% of the global population, there never has and never will be a "time of plenty". For most of the other 40% (us) the real doom is facing up to the fact that the plenty we currently enjoy will become less plentiful in the future.

[onlooker]

good observation Dolan, especially in respect to the fact that the Cornucopian and Doom viewpoints are ways for us to deal with daily facets of our life as well as what the future holds for us. By analyzing all this we can always find both good and bad things about our lives especially in relation to other peoples lives past, present and future. In the end, I think it behooves us all to not get caught up in wishing for idealistic lives and just being grateful for the here and now and accepting that the future will bring what it will bring including the inevitable demise of each and everyone of us.

[Ibon]

Let's not forget that many live the contradiction of being both doomers and cornies, all depending on the context. As Ibon I have engaged in an identity that worships an overshoot predator to bring balance to our species and planet. The ecologist that I am truly embraces this.

In my life's career and investment decisions however I have been totally cornie in investing and designing a lifestyle that is fully dependent on the discretionary spending of travelers.

Ludi, a poster long gone, used to challenge me as being a hypocrite, Loki started touching on this awhile back. As long as the economy is resilient enough for travelers to help me finance my fantasy of being a naturalist in the Victorian age of the 2nd half of the 19th century I will continue this cornie / doomer dichotomy.

Back to pinning some bugs.....

[onlooker]

Ibon, I don't really see any contradiction or hypocrisy here. I think we should all be swayed by the truth/reality whether it sounds corny or doomerish. Also, we all have to live in the present and makes our lives the best possible which seems to me is what you are doing. lol

[Ibon]

If I would have taken my doomer sentiments seriously 10 years ago when I first learned about peak oil and then gotten all overly defensive I would have missed out on a number of great experiences. My ecology instincts know we are heading toward a correction but other instincts have been at work that had me trusting the resilience of BAU. I think many of us contain both sentiments and we juggle them constantly gauging the frequencies of both. Predicting the future is next to impossible though and for this reason I maintain a healthy dosis of doomer sentiment because this also serves as a reminder to enjoy each day that our species remains resilient...... even though this more objective ecologist in me is not happy with our resilience as we continue to rape and pillage......just as the cornie in me does not want resilience to subside.

These different voices we carry in our heads reflect the unresolvable nature of our species dilemma. Our internal narratives are microcosms of what is happening out there at large.

[Newfie]

What is missing is the interpretation of all this corn/doom over a realistic time line. (And also widening the discussion to talk about more than energy price!)

One can be opptomistic about growth and cheap calories and economic expansion over the short term. If you limit your focus to your lifetime then, perhaps, all is good.

On any sufficiently long time scale the answer always become we run out of fossil fuels. How long I don't know, but surely less than 7 generations I would think. If you think in these longer time frames it becomes pretty pessimistic.

If one is to broaden the view past the narrow field of cheap calories, to encompass generalized resource depletion and our very complex global market dynamics and politics, the future becomes even more volatile.

I tend to observe and reflect on the longer, larger picture. If I hear Pops correctly his focus is on the short term. We may not disagree on the overall picture much (or, maybe we do?) but our presentation, dictated by time specific vantage point, makes it seem very different.

It also goes to explain Ibon's supposed Hipocracy, it's just realizing there are two different time frames and reacting to each separately.

--------

I've recently read two books claiming that one unique feature of humans is our ability to think or project into the future, other animals can't do that. Perhaps that is true. Surely some of us can. What I think we can not do effectively is to ACT, AS A SOCIETY or a SPECIES, on the future projections. Thus we individually see what is before us, but we can't get our stuff together to do anything about it.

What were they thinking when they cut down the last tree on Easter Island? Wow, this is stupid!

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', ' ')What I think we can not do effectively is to ACT, AS A SOCIETY or a SPECIES, on the future projections.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')f one is to broaden the view past the narrow field of cheap calories, to encompass generalized resource depletion and our very complex global market dynamics and politics, the future becomes even more volatile.

I tend to observe and reflect on the longer, larger picture. If I hear Pops correctly his focus is on the short term. We may not disagree on the overall picture much (or, maybe we do?) but our presentation, dictated by time specific vantage point, makes it seem very different.

[Newfie]

Ibon,

You are probably right, at least I think you are.

Still, for what ever reason, I try to understand human nature.

I think I'm afraid of it, thus I want to understand it and make it more manageable.

FWIW
I had a bit of a panic attack today while driving in the city and getting trapped by a St Paddys Day Parade. The crush of humanity can be intimidating to me. I am looking forward to my escape, Dec 2015!

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')f one is to broaden the view past the narrow field of cheap calories, to encompass generalized resource depletion and our very complex global market dynamics and politics, the future becomes even more volatile.

I tend to observe and reflect on the longer, larger picture. If I hear Pops correctly his focus is on the short term. We may not disagree on the overall picture much (or, maybe we do?) but our presentation, dictated by time specific vantage point, makes it seem very different.

[onlooker]

To chime in again here, Ibon has a point in that to worry about the ultimate fate of humanity is at best counterproductive. I think most of us here on this site have squarely looked at the facts and interpreted them with the foreboding they warrant. Nevertheless, I do think each and everyone of us should strive to be an optimist or cornucopian in so much as regards our relatively brief time here on Earth both in terms of our (includes family) immediate future as well as our fate after we die. It is good for our mental health and makes sense. Besides I think we as humans tend to worry to much.