[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'A')re you a far left liberal? In my experience, only a far left liberal with nary a clue about economics would make such an argument and expect to be taken at all seriously.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ho trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')f you didn't notice, I toned down my rant. Just for you outcast.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')TW, WHAT does your rant about environmental issues have to do with my point that saying a government program is a basic need because people "WANT" it is typical of far left economic babblespeak (and therefore I find it amusing)?

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou know Sub, I mostly believe in the christian message of Love (I just don't like the antiquated angry components. Are they all from the old testament?). Science and the bible agree that love binds us; social status-seeking hominids bound by tribal affiliation and displaced motherly love.

Let's hold hands and sing kumbaya now.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'I') didn't say Health Care is not a need, clearly everyone needs it. I am talking about from the POV of a society, not the individual. From the point of view of a society having the elderly and the people with lousy immune systems like myself quietly die off and be replaced by healthier and younger worker drones is a big plus. Sucks to be one of us who needs medication to remain on the sunny side of the sod, but them's the breaks after Peak when resources become restricted.

Pops you have stated you are T1D, insulin dependent. If things go to heck in a handbasket you are going to have to figure out how to get more insulin to fill your absolute need, or you will cease to live. From the POV of society when food is in short supply and gas is restricted to 'vital services' how much importance will the authorities place on getting you insulin in a timely manner? I am on medication for blood pressure, gall bladder, kidneys, other issues as well. If things go completely to pieces when my current prescriptions run out that will be the end of the line. I might be able to survive a week/month, maybe even a few years, but then again I might not. I very much WANT health care to continue on cheap enough for me to afford it, but from the POV of society I am just a useless eater who posts opinions online a lot.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'O')n a world wide basis there is no "Need" for health care. There are about two billion people on the planet that are under thirty and have never had any health care and probably never will. They can ,have, and will ,reproduce at rates that more then balance infant and young adult death rates which are the only ones that matter as all us old plodders will die eventually and once your children are independent from you, how long you hang on is immaterial.
So to get back to what your minimum needs are I go to: food , water, shelter, clothing and somewhere there has to be the tools and energy to keep supplying the above as you consume them. You can either grow or make them yourself or exchange some useful skill, labor or property for them.
Food 2500 calories /day to allow physical activity and for some waste.
Shelter 150 square feet per person, weather tight and capable of being heated in winter. (A yurt would do.). Water: the average American uses 100 gallons per day. the average Bedouin in Iraq about five. We could probably get by with 25/ day plus two acre feet per year to grow our food.
Energy: grow & cook your food and heat your shelter.? A couple of barrels of diesel or gas and a cord of wood or equivalent/ person for heat.
That is it for necessities, then you get into optional or luxury items.
First would be electricity for lighting and then for food preservation. Then some energy for transport to save walking to work and carrying things home from the store by backpack. Soap to keep everything clean and healthy.
That all sounds pretty spartan but a lot of the world is already getting by on a lot less.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', 'I') don't think Tanada is referring to "society" where health care is indeed necessary to stability, but ironically to this thing called "humanity" where our species improves as the weak or unfortunate get pruned.

In any case, this thread atill hasn't presented any evidence for cornies being wrong or doomers being right; I wish it would get pruned to nonexistence.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Universal health care is a want, not a need...

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')f you didn't notice, I toned down my rant. Just for you outcast.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')TW, WHAT does your rant about environmental issues have to do with my point that saying a government program is a basic need because people "WANT" it is typical of far left economic babblespeak (and therefore I find it amusing)?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Universal health care is a want, not a need...

[Quinny]

I agree with a lot of what you say Tanada, but also believe that a communist system is the only way to provide it.

[Pops]

T,
You are taking lots of words to justify the idea that we shouldn't take care of each other.

Who knows, maybe. Most other countries disagree and have some type of societal system in place to achieve that while we here still calling each other names because we're afraid the next guy is getting a better deal and resent him for it.

When the ballon goes up it is entirely possible that the system will breakdown. The difference will be that other country's medical delivery system is already designed so everyone can get some, they'll ration based on efficacy. Here we'll just continue to ration based on income.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'T'),
You are taking lots of words to justify the idea that we shouldn't take care of each other.

Who knows, maybe. Most other countries disagree and have some type of societal system in place to achieve that while we here still calling each other names because we're afraid the next guy is getting a better deal and resent him for it.

When the balloon goes up it is entirely possible that the system will breakdown. The difference will be that other country's medical delivery system is already designed so everyone can get some, they'll ration based on efficacy. Here we'll just continue to ration based on income.

[Pops]

Come on T, don't get all defensive. The idea you argued is "health is not a right," it's a common belief in the US - I'd say about the same as any conservative ideology, you aren't saying anything new.

Other countries think it is a right. And in the context of the Big Die-Off I think they will be better off for having a system in place to provide basic medicine while the majority of our docs specialists will experience Peak Boob Job (PBJ) and sit around waiting to do a facelift until they are forced to start collecting cans along the road.

US medicine it twice as expensive as anywhere else (and not as good) because we spend 3-6 times as much on specialists.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n business, bad problems call for plain talk. The data I found says the dominant problem with U.S. health care costs is a labor problem with medical professionals. Wages and work rules (i.e., referral decisions leading to over-utilization, staffing levels in hospitals) have driven costs to a level that is now unbearable

[vtsnowedin]

It is a bit disconcerting that we need to debate the difference between want and need. You need air. If you are deprived of it for more then three minutes you will die. You want high speed internet but if you are deprived of it you might have to read a book.