[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'M')ore fucking floss!

[Quinny]

Well we'll all be hunky dory then. Will these automatic cars magically refuel as well!

Wake up, we've got one big 'habitat' in this solar system and we're not gonna find another!

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'W')ake up, we've got one big 'habitat' in this solar system and we're not gonna find another!

[Quinny]

OK PO is a load of shite in your opinion - why the fuck do you bother coming here?

[Outcast_Searcher]

I thought that both the initial posts of Pops and Dissident were great, and summed up the problem very well if you combine them thus: As a species, we are "smart monkeys" constantly taking the path of least resistance.

The consequences today are rather obvious. Sadly, as part of the least resistance thing, however, many of us can't even agree on what the problems are (often due to self interest). Thus little gets done.

Think about it. A HUGE proportion of people are manifestly unaware/unwilling financially to make any reasonable effort to save for their retirement. In fact, a frightening proportion are unwilling to save ANYTHING, as though unexpected problems somehow never will occur.

So, if you can't get the vast majority of people to make sound decisions for their OWN interests in, say, 30 years -- how can we get people to think multiple centuries ahead for things we haven't completely gotten our arms around yet (like the planet, what we are doing to it, and what we should do to save it).

And think of this: in the US, over half of adults don't believe in the very mature science of evolution since it offends their ideas about religion, or they're just taught to distrust science. In 2012, 26% of polled adults thought the sun revolved around the earth. So getting people to agree on ANYTHING meaningful, much less being willing to work together to solve critical problems, seems a LONG way off. Technology or not, I don't think we have a "long" time to make a serious effort.

Much of the really, really, stupid stuff in society/history -- the stuff that makes you just ASHAMED to be a human being -- comes (IMO) from our tribal roots. Racism is a classic example. So instead of: "There's another person, so my first inclination will be to treat them with respect, since they're a fellow human" we have a history of tribalism: "Hey, that dude doesn't look at me. Danger danger. He will try to steal my woman and hurt my kids and my tribe." It's really sad that we are only in the process of growing out of such lunacy, as REAL problems loom. Evolution works too slowly when the pace of change is exponential.

And now we're apparently destroying the planet. We don't know all the details yet, but between pollution, overpopulation, resource mismanagement, AGW, constantly killing each other (wars and general violence) -- we have a tragic history of being about as intelligent as an overall species as a colony of bacteria. And yet, we can't agree to do much of anything -- because it might hurt someone's self interest, conflicts with religious belief, etc.

It's probably unavoidable, but it certainly is tragic. I wonder how often that scenario is repeated when intelligent life actually manages to evolve (with what we have learned from science, such as studying exo-planets, it's still too early to say how rare such life may be).

I wonder if the occasional intelligent race overcomes such problems and goes out and explores the stars. I expect that unlike on Star Trek, the evidence they find is that intelligent civilizations are generally so destructive and stupid that contact with them should be avoided.

[Pops]

Yeh, it seems to me that the very things that made us good at survival are the very things that, given tools like FFs can easily lead to our demise. Like giving a monkey a pipe bomb and expecting him to use it to open a coconut.

[onlooker]

I will weigh in here, to say technology is great but it is just a tool , the post by Pops states the same. Our "tool" has bought us to the brink of extinction. So I will not abide anyone who simply clings to technology like a magic bullet or something. Does anyone think technology ever really solved any social ill. I do not. Does technology allow us to be better human beings ? No. Has it throughout time ? No
Our problems it seems to be stem to a large degree from a ruling class devoid of morality , too power hungry and too greedy and consequently making poor decisions for all of us. Throw in the masses showing apathy, willingly ignorant, too self-interested. Now as icing on the cake, have we the masses truly ever had the power to on a macro level make really important decisions that affect us all. I would say for the most part no. Now I do not know if we could have done a better job then the elite in making those decision but I would have preferred those decisions be made by everyone not just a few privileged persons at the top.

[Pops]

You act as if "The Elite" and "The Ruling Class" are some separate species, LOL.

They aren't. Granted there is some benefit to being conceived in the right womb but by and large the rulers are in charge because of their motivation and some amount of luck. I think it is a cop out to ascribe Them with all the blame when they are just us, only with better passwords.

[onlooker]

Sorry Pops a semantics misunderstanding, they are one and the same malignant species . Seriously though I do not ascribe all the blame to the elites/ruling class. All people throughout time share some of the blame for being apathetic , ignorant, selfish, mean and unkind etc. However, I do ascribe to them a special role in so much as they have been instrumental in charting our course of evolution during the civilization phase of humanity. They are us but having traits worse then most of us and as to how they reached that privileged position the point is that they were in that position whereby they had great power. So from the adage that states "power corrupts and total power corrupts totally", something about power and wealth that distorts a human being in a negative way. Oh and some in power can trace their lineage way back according to some information I have read.

[Deputy Barnes]

A list of reasons for today's problems:

Labor laws
Women's suffrage
The two day weekend
Income and property taxes
Lax border enforcement
Social Security
Universal education
Desegregation
GI Bill
Legalized divorce
Affirmative Action
Ending compulsory sterilization of low class women
Aesthetically unpleasant architecture

[Subjectivist]

I read a comedy, very misogonistic, about how much better off the country was after they repealed womens sufferage. The basis was, ugly smart guys got elected before 1920 but after that it was emotionally satisfying handsome dudes who got elected.

[hvacman]

What went wrong? We discovered fire, invented the wheel, learned to talk and write, make weapons, and developed agriculture. Eradicated our first species by out-competing our Neanderthal cousins. It's all been downhill from there, from some people's perspective.

I prefer Spinoza's timeless analysis of the human condition, our motivations and actions, and the "morality" of our interface with the universe

I have laboured carefully, not to mock, lament, or execrate, but to understand human actions ; and, to this end, I have looked upon passions, such as love, hatred, anger, envy, ambition, pity, and the other perturbations of the mind, not in the light of vices of human nature, but as properties, just as pertinent to it, as are heat, cold, storm, thunder, and the like to the nature of the atmosphere, which phenomena, though inconvenient, are yet necessary, and have fixed causes, by means of which we endeavour to understand their nature, and the mind has just as much pleasure in viewing them aright, as in knowing such things as flatter the senses

"Properties, Not Vices" is Chapter one of Garrett Hardin's "Filters Against Folly". I encourage all to read it.

[Deputy Barnes]

Actually Neanderthals invented fiflre production, as well as other neat-o technologies like distillation of birch bark and the first weapons/written language. The modern consensus is that Neanderthals evolved in to modern Eurasians; the out of africa theory was bullshit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hvacman', 'W')hat went wrong? We discovered fire, invented the wheel, learned to talk and write, make weapons, and developed agriculture. Eradicated our first species by out-competing our Neanderthal cousins. It's all been downhill from there, from some people's perspective.

I prefer Spinoza's timeless analysis of the human condition, our motivations and actions, and the "morality" of our interface with the universe

I have laboured carefully, not to mock, lament, or execrate, but to understand human actions ; and, to this end, I have looked upon passions, such as love, hatred, anger, envy, ambition, pity, and the other perturbations of the mind, not in the light of vices of human nature, but as properties, just as pertinent to it, as are heat, cold, storm, thunder, and the like to the nature of the atmosphere, which phenomena, though inconvenient, are yet necessary, and have fixed causes, by means of which we endeavour to understand their nature, and the mind has just as much pleasure in viewing them aright, as in knowing such things as flatter the senses

"Properties, Not Vices" is Chapter one of Garrett Hardin's "Filters Against Folly". I encourage all to read it.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Deputy Barnes', 'T')he modern consensus is that Neanderthals evolved in to modern Eurasians; the out of africa theory was bullshit.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'I')s not progress finally realizing that we are all human beings and we have so much more in common then we have as differences.

[Tanada]

ROFL, this is why police and fire fighters and EMS workers hate getting called out on domestic disputes. 90 percent of the time the two aggrieved parties unite to attack the person trying to break up the fight.

[DesuMaiden]

I would like to answer your question with the following quote from dieoff.org

"The destruction of the natural world is not the result of global capitalism, industrialism, Western civilization or any flaws in human institutions. It is the consequence of the evolutionary success of an especially rapacious primate. Throughout all of prehistory and history, human advance has coincied with ecological devastation."~~by John Gray

It is basically engrained in our genetic make-up to be destructive primates, basically. While there are sometimes more compassionate and peaceful humans, humanity as a whole is destructive and rapacious.

[KaiserJeep]

Desu, I'm happy to have you come around to that point of view, one I have been expressing for years. We use Ibon's term "Kudzu Ape" for the human primate.

Now go one step further and realize that those same primate instincts doom us. The most strident and intolerent proponents of AGW still own vehicles with fuel tanks, use power grid electricity, and eat food from multiple countries, while preaching to the rest of us that we must change our planet killing ways.

Mankind's intellect seldom overcomes his primate instincts. Most people never even think about such things, as what their ape instincts urge them to do is considered good common sense.

[ROCKMAN]

KJ - " Mankind's intellect seldom overcomes his primate instincts." I think that provides a bit of cover to "mankind". I see consumerism every time I look around...and every time I sell a bbl of oil. And I see no choices made instinctively but rather very clear choices made for very specific reasons. And reasons that are readily defended...such as Vice-president Gore burning countless gallons of jet fuel traveling the world lecturing on climate change. There is nothing "instinctive" in his actions.

Not a function of overcoming "primitive instincts" but overcoming modern desires.

[onlooker]

I also, believe it's a cop out always to ascribe to our primate nature or genes our individual and collective actions. As Rock said we have to face certain blame on the individual level for wanting what we want. So I do not see as inevitable what has happened here on Earth. We as humans are an amalgamation of genetic and surrounding influences. Plus free will.