[Plantagenet]

Russian insurgents just shot down two Ukrainian jets close to where they shot down the passenger jet in eastern Ukraine.

Also No word yet on what the Russians have done with the missing 90 bodies from the Malaysian 777. Creepy stuff.

[Quinny]

liar

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '.')...the operator mis-identified a target.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'R')ussian insurgents just shot down two Ukrainian jets close to where they shot down the passenger jet in eastern Ukraine.

Also No word yet on what the Russians have done with the missing 90 bodies from the Malaysian 777. Creepy stuff.

[Plantagenet]

There is no doubt there is creepy stuff going on---some of the victims credit cards have been ripped off, and there are photographs of Russian militia stealing rings and other valuable from the bodies. The crash site itself is now contaminated and disrupted with many items moved or stolen or selectively removed. For instance, the investigative team was shocked to see that the Russians had cut their way into the cockpit part of the plane with giant diesel-powered metal saws. You can't disrupt things much more than that.

And as far as the victims, there were ca. 200 bodies on the train to Holland, but 295 people on the plane.

If the Russians have recovered almost all of them, then where are the additional ca. 95 bodies? Shouldn't these victims be returned to their families as well?

[Plantagenet]

A Russian blogger has posted pictures of the Russian BUK SAM system returning to Russia after the passenger jet shootdown.

blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia


Look! The Russian BUK missile system that shot down the passenger jet is running away from the scene of the crime!

[AgentR11]

Six/Plant, your problem is that you think it matters what comes out of the mouth of Putin, Poroshinko, or Obama.

It doesn't in the slightest. Neither were there at the moment of launch. All have incentive to spin the event in a particular way regardless of whether the facts support them or not.

My explanation, is not based upon what they said, but what is most physically probable.

Here are facts:

There are BUK systems in E. Ukraine that are not being operated by Kiev forces.
Forces that oppose Kiev in E. Ukraine have limited air defense information systems.
Forces that oppose Kiev in E. Ukraine are engaged in surface to air combat.
Kiev forces are flying both heavy transports and ground attack aircraft in E. Ukraine.
MH17 flew West to East, through the opposition forces combat theater, within range of BUK systems.
Shooting down MH17 is a waste of an expensive, limited quantity munition for the opposition forces.
Shooting down MH17 provides no tactical benefit for Kiev or Moscow.
Kiev and Moscow have sufficient air defense information systems to properly identify and track MH17.

From these facts, indisputable facts, I come to the conclusion that opposition forces in E. Ukraine misidentified MH17 from their truck mounted system; thought they had a Ukraine transport on their screen, and fired the SAM, killing MH17 as collateral damage.

This doesn't make it a war crime, nor a murder. The appropriate remedy, as we have paid before, as Ukraine has paid before, as others have paid, is an apology and financial compensation once the facts and reports are finalized.

Now, post event, it serves Moscow's interests to string this thing along for as long as possible; always keep your eye on the prize. Every day added of complexity and intrigue, is one more day of Russian soldiers at Armyansk digging holes and laying mines, one more day of trucks and munitions coming across the ferry at Kerch.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') come to the conclusion that opposition forces in E. Ukraine misidentified MH17 from their truck mounted system; thought they had a Ukraine transport on their screen, and fired the SAM

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')ho fired the SAM isn't clear yet. As the Obama administration noted in their recent statement, the SAM was definitely fired from the area controlled by pro-Russia militias, but the nationality of the BUK operator isn't known yet.

Its quite possible the BUK system was being operated by Russian military specialists. After all, the pro-Russian militia in eastern Ukraine doesn't even have BUKS---the Russian military supplied them. The BUK trucks are thought to have entered eastern Ukraine shortly before the shootdown. And just days after the shoot-down, the Russian military drove the mobile Buks back out of eastern Ukraine and into Russia.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')
As to driving it back to Russia... It is the correct response to an accidental shoot down.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'A')s to driving it back to Russia... It is the correct response to an accidental shoot down.