[PrestonSturges]

Americans get tired of peace and stability and feel the need to provoke wars as if wars are sporting events or a new season of some television show.

Reagan got the Iowa and New Jersey battleships out of storage. The NJ shelled Lebanon with 14" shells and what did that accomplish except create news reports? The Iowa suffered a deadly fire.

But I think it's that sort of expensive and pointless action that people crave.

[AgentR11]

Again with the "do something" vaguery.

Like what.
No sanction you write on paper will cause Russia to leave Crimea.
They will leave E. Ukraine once Crimea is beyond recapture, regardless of action or not on our part.

So, are you going to shoot Russian troops on Russian territory, or not? That *WOULD* move the ball; I think it would be stupid beyond belief, but it would be "something".

In this context, Sanctions are NOT something. Troop movements are NOT something.

Stop with the something. The truth is there is NO something to do; its why its so frustrating for the West. Everyone all riled up wanting to punish Russia; and Russian oligarchs laughing all the way to their stock market where everything's on sale, and they're the only ones in position to take advantage of it.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'Y')ou know, you guys can say what you want to about "mainstream," but I'm sitting here listening to the former US ambassador to Russia (on CNN) and he makes sense to me.

He says Putin has been experimenting in east Ukraine and now his games have caused 300 innocent uninvolved people to lose their lives.

He says if we don't do anything about Putin, he'll just keep it up, in Ukraine and other places.

So y'all can be tinfoil and read Dimitry Orlov books and watch RT and be an expat abroad or whatever it is you want to do, but I believe the "mainstream" on this one.

I've watched this thing from the start, and the "mainstream" is right.

[Sixstrings]

MSNBC's on a tear with Putin today.

They're talking about how when Joe Biden met him, he looked him in the eyes and said "I don't think you have a soul."

And Putin said back: "Good, we understand each other."



Talking heads going on about how Putin is what he is, he's ex KGB and he wants power, and to reconstitute old Soviet power and will do it by any means, and it's all games.

EDIT: some more MSNBC red meat, talking heads saying UK's David Cameron won't ever do anything because the UK is the world's largest money laundering hub for Russian oligarchs.

And I realize it doesn't matter what talking heads say on teevee, but, it actually does shape the national discussion and what direction things go in.

Apparently Europe may not agree to the tougher sanctions. *Even after* this plane going down. This is actually pretty dangerous here, guys, the whole of Europe is like a neighborhood now dominated by a mafia.

They can't stand up. They're trapped, they may as well be a Belarus or the old Ukraine etc. etc., and that was Putin's plan, for Europe to become a satellite of Moscow.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', ' ')people who won't shoulder their own weapons.....

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'L')ike what.
No sanction you write on paper will cause Russia to leave Crimea.

[Lore]

Supplying deadly weapons to enforce our political ideology is the ole modus operandi of the US foreign policy of engagement. It's war by proxy which inevitably leads to our full involvement. Good to see that we've possibly learned a few lessons here.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')upplying deadly weapons to enforce our political ideology is the ole modus operandi of the US foreign policy of engagement. It's war by proxy which inevitably leads to our full involvement. Good to see that we've possibly learned a few lessons here.

[Pops]

Proly OT except to the thread title, Obama really has been weak. The only saving grace is that his opponents were too obstinate to accept his overtures at continuing and expanding the trickle up givaway.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Obama team, as the president once announced to a delegation of investment bankers, was “the only thing between you and the pitchforks,” and in retrospect these words seem not only to have been a correct assessment of the situation at the moment but a credo for his entire term in office.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')upplying deadly weapons to enforce our political ideology is the ole modus operandi of the US foreign policy of engagement. It's war by proxy which inevitably leads to our full involvement. Good to see that we've possibly learned a few lessons here.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'I')f NATO / US troops had been moved in way back when I said they should be then Russia couldn't have taken Crimea.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'W')hat we have to be afraid of is precisely because our conventional military is so superior. It causes the problem. Russia's only valid response to an attack by the US is nuclear. We must not place Russia into a situation where they have to choose between "suicide and the west gets to live happily ever after" or "suicide and the west gets to be miserable with us." Cause I know EXACTLY what a Russian would choose if presented with such a choice, and it doesn't take them 2 seconds to make that choice or recognize the situation.

Frankly, I'd like to not be miserable. And nothing in Ukraine or the Crimea is worth even a day of unpleasantness to me or my family.

[basil_hayden]

You can create TARPs and helicopter-drop money for fiscal problems.

You can substitute or pay more for food, fuel or housing.

But you can't do squat about pissed off people, except to hope they'll all kill each other off.

And if they don't, a couple of large oceans to cross is a good thing.

Now if we only had an adequate border and coast patrol......

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')'d say the likelihood of a nuke war or a land or sea war either are small.
Cyber war on the other hand ...

[Oneaboveall]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'M')SNBC's on a tear with Putin today.

They're talking about how when Joe Biden met him, he looked him in the eyes and said "I don't think you have a soul."

And Putin said back: "Good, we understand each other."



Talking heads going on about how Putin is what he is, he's ex KGB and he wants power, and to reconstitute old Soviet power and will do it by any means, and it's all games.

EDIT: some more MSNBC red meat, talking heads saying UK's David Cameron won't ever do anything because the UK is the world's largest money laundering hub for Russian oligarchs.

And I realize it doesn't matter what talking heads say on teevee, but, it actually does shape the national discussion and what direction things go in.

Apparently Europe may not agree to the tougher sanctions. *Even after* this plane going down. This is actually pretty dangerous here, guys, the whole of Europe is like a neighborhood now dominated by a mafia.

They can't stand up. They're trapped, they may as well be a Belarus or the old Ukraine etc. etc., and that was Putin's plan, for Europe to become a satellite of Moscow.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oneaboveall', '
')Given this crank call and the anchor's embarrassing response to it, I think MSNBC would be one of the last sources you'd want to listen to:

http://youtu.be/URF2uOD5nhE

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')'d say the likelihood of a nuke war or a land or sea war either are small.
Cyber war on the other hand ...

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')upplying deadly weapons to enforce our political ideology is the ole modus operandi of the US foreign policy of engagement. It's war by proxy which inevitably leads to our full involvement. Good to see that we've possibly learned a few lessons here.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'A')nd if Russian troops moved into San Diego we'd just smile and say OK? I can't believe someone would write the above.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')upplying deadly weapons to enforce our political ideology is the ole modus operandi of the US foreign policy of engagement. It's war by proxy which inevitably leads to our full involvement. Good to see that we've possibly learned a few lessons here.