[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')I don't know man, that just rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry for the snarky remark.

In my experience, hogs are definitely spooked by the gunshots. I'm sure they don't know their siblings are dying and might not care, but the crack of a .22 Magnum panics them.

As for raising two cats, my cat would disagree. No one hates cats more than he does

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he average city worker drives something like a half hour each way, consuming a few gallons of gas, with no productive output.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')OL, that is a pretty funny statement, cities are more "ecologically viable"?

Where do you think all the stuff needed to maintain cities comes from? I guess if you strip-mine everywhere else and ship the goods to town then yeah. LOL

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'T')he whole self-sufficient dick measuring contest is pointless. You use tools, cans, electricity, the Internet, entertainment all from other places. In hard times the supplies to rural areas will get cut off first.

[basil_hayden]

The Ideal of Total Self Sufficiency is not misguided, but it's merely an ideal to work towards, not practical in every sense.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'T')he whole self-sufficient dick measuring contest is pointless. You use tools, cans, electricity, the Internet, entertainment all from other places. In hard times the supplies to rural areas will get cut off first.

[dolanbaker]

The human race as a whole is self sufficient, no intergalactic supply ships are ever going to visit.
An important point to remember while we're emptying the stores without any real thought of how they're going to sustain future generations.

[Shaved Monkey]

BRB Im busy building a statue of John Frum

[Newfie]

As well you should. You will be well rewarded.

( I had to look up John Frum, kinda Kool)

[Newfie]

Narz,

I grew up in rural South Jersey. I'm only half Newfie, the other half is Piney.

Back then it was NOTHING like the norther portion. At one time I could take you to a crystal clear lake in the woods. I can still canoe down a quiet river for six hours. There were a number of clammers on our creek, including Dad, who made there living tonging. The water in the bay was sufficiently clear to see the bottom. You could always hear owls. And a Whip-o-Will on the roof would lift you out of bed.

It was a beautiful place a one time.

I dislike going back, it's too painful to see what we have done to it.

That's part of why I have reinforced my Newfie connections, there is some greater continuity there. A damn site fewer people.

It's a pity your Dauhgter will ever only know the carcass, not the living body.

My condolences.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'T')here's the thing, I think you see this as a contest, an internet game with the object of defending your lifestyle instead of a chance to make your position more resilient.

[Newfie]

Been there, done that, sucks.

I do disagree with your analysis of cities. But I suspect that we have some fundamental, even subliminal difference of perception.

In the above back and forth I think we all are talking past one another, very little understanding. There must be some deep perceptional difference.

I suspect that deep in our genes, or in early experiences, deploy held opinions exist that color our perception. Of course, I think I see clearly, just as you think you are the one with the correct view. Finding the true truth is difficult.

Although I grew up a hick I now live in cc Philadelphia. I have spent much of my career working in mass transit on the NE corridor, DC to Boston. I do see that cities, aggregations of people, have value. We can not be individually self sufficient, we need one another.

Perhaps the real question is more along the lines of ....."How independent can we be of fossil fuels?"

The less packaged energy we have the more we will have to do by hand the more we revert to an agrarian society the less well big cities work.

It is hard to see how we can retain the farmer to city dweller ratio we now have in the face of expensive or rare oil.

[Narz]

But you don't address the issue of land. There's not enough room for all the "city mice" to have 3 acres & a mule. During any kind of economic contraction especially. The only way the world will become "re-ruralified" is if 90% of the population kicks the bucket.

I mean, do you see a way to house 7+ billion people without cities?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')ut you don't address the issue of land. There's not enough room for all the "city mice" to have 3 acres & a mule. During any kind of economic contraction especially. The only way the world will become "re-ruralified" is if 90% of the population kicks the bucket.

I mean, do you see a way to house 7+ billion people without cities?

[Pops]

Not everyone should be a farmer or even rural, again thats a false choice and a strawman.

I suppose from the time we began producing crop surpluses and began specializing, cities provided for trade and then manufacturing, that won't change. What will change, eventually, is the surpluses provided by FFs will diminish and with that surplus will go lots of jobs. Unless the Jetson Economy sprouts (which it shows no sign of doing) the folks doing the back office work to the FF economy and providing the services that economy allows will be on the street.

If that is a ways down the road or not I have no way of guessing, I don't know if the economy is fragile or tough, your guess is as good as mine. But like everyone else I have my own experiences and have heard a particular set of family fables and they lead me to believe that fortunes can turn on a dime.

That point of view leads my to believe and pontificate endlessly that everyone should at least try to be a little more self sufficient. Even short term preps like candles, spaghettiOs & bottled water take up little room and cost less than a month's texting but would make a difference when the power goes out or the pink slip arrives. What's more, just thinking about buying a few more canned goods than you need for the weekend puts one in the frame of mind to consider the tenuous nature of our lifestyle and perhaps do a little more.

The post FF, post GW world will be inhabited by people accustomed to that world, I don't know what it will look like and most likely it will be after my time. I'm pretty sure that unless the energy fairy pulls out a plum, life will be harder than what we have today. But, it will be the way things are and all those folks know. I've always thought the hardest will be the inbetween part, the getting from here to there because the transition won't be all feel good, locavore, crunchy chicken.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')ut you don't address the issue of land. There's not enough room for all the "city mice" to have 3 acres & a mule. During any kind of economic contraction especially. The only way the world will become "re-ruralified" is if 90% of the population kicks the bucket.

I mean, do you see a way to house 7+ billion people without cities?

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')There is no way to house 7 billion with out cities.

[Newfie]

D & P, FWIW I agree, we are social critters who tend to aggregate. The true loner is very unusual.

But I think what Narz Was talking about is something very different, think NYC, Boston, DC. The question, as u understand it is, are Those very large aggregations of people sustainable? Can we sustain a human population of 7 billion?

[Loki]

Dino, you can't lump hamlets and villages with mega-cities like NYC. Totally different creatures.

Yes, humans are social animals, doesn't mean mega-cities are our natural habitat.