[ralfy]

Unfortunately, we now have a far larger global population and significant environmental damage.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
Yes, humans are social animals, doesn't mean mega-cities are our natural habitat.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
Yes, humans are social animals, doesn't mean mega-cities are our natural habitat.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'D') & P, FWIW I agree, we are social critters who tend to aggregate. The true loner is very unusual.

But I think what Narz Was talking about is something very different, think NYC, Boston, DC. The question, as u understand it is, are Those very large aggregations of people sustainable? Can we sustain a human population of 7 billion?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'D') & P, FWIW I agree, we are social critters who tend to aggregate. The true loner is very unusual.

But I think what Narz Was talking about is something very different, think NYC, Boston, DC. The question, as u understand it is, are Those very large aggregations of people sustainable? Can we sustain a human population of 7 billion?

[Newfie]

OK guys, you win.

Mega cities and unlimited growth forever.

Just won't be with me.

Good luck with all that.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')hite flour has always been the primary tool of oppression.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
Yes, humans are social animals, doesn't mean mega-cities are our natural habitat.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')ut you don't address the issue of land. There's not enough room for all the "city mice" to have 3 acres & a mule. During any kind of economic contraction especially. The only way the world will become "re-ruralified" is if 90% of the population kicks the bucket.

I mean, do you see a way to house 7+ billion people without cities?

[Newfie]

Yeah, I have problems with all this "productivity" crap.

If we are so damn "productive" why are we working 50+ hours a week?

I know we share different view points, so if you can share mine for a bit.....

Think of a farmer with a wife and two kids. He needs to produce something on the order of 7,000 calories of edible food, plus wood to heat his house, plus maintenance on the house. If he has draft animals then he needs to produce their intake also. This is productivity. Ditto for a fisherman. When they have enough surplus they can sell or trade.

A cobbler needs to produce enough value added that the farmers in his vicinity will "pay" him in gold, dollars, or wheat, for his services.

Now think of a city dweller who is working at a health insurance company filing forms or administering contracts. Or think of a DHS worker scanning you at the airport, or a lawyer prosecuting a libel case, or etc. Their "productivity" is greatly removed from the daily needs. That kind of work can only exist in highly organized cultures. You don't find a lot of health care program administrators in the bush.

I work a lot with bureaucratic organizations and have had the opportunity to do maintenance audits on their productivity. The audits were done against an established industrial scoring mechanism to evaluate the organizations efficiency. The score ranges from something like 20% productive (even a broke clock is right twice a day) to 65% productive (gotta take brakes, fill out forms, do training.) It's been a long time ago so those are rough numbers. My clients inevitably came up at the 20% figure. What's more, despite much chest beating and ballyhooing, NOTHING CHANGED.

At least one chap who worked on these audits with me is now in charge of one of these organizations. He is a good and honorable man, very energetic....and NOTHING CHANGED.

The point of work in our society has nothing to do with productivity, it is all about finding a way to keep people occupied in something that they think is meaningful, even if it is not.

Our culture has no rational response to our already extraordinary productive (brought to you through the use of non-renewable fossil fuels.) On the one hand we whine "there are too few jobs." But then we complain about government spending and fuss that we need to both be more "productive" and that we need to raise the retirement age. Really? Raise the retirement age? Wouldn't that just make the unemployment situation worse? Of course it would, our response is not rational. In the end it really doesn't matter, the fossil fuel glut will eventually come to an end, and with it our ludicrous life style.

Once in a while I'd like to hear someone say "We don't have too few jobs, we have too many people."

If one chases this line of investigation far enough you eventually come to ask the question Why do we NEED people? What is humanity trying to accomplish? That leads us to another place of inquiry altogether which has been discussed here....

the-entropy-thread-merged-t19059-400.html

My apologies if I come across as obtuse. I have some ideas that are far from mainstream and which challenge our basic principles. While I think they are correct, they are very difficult to describe in such an abbreviated venue. And I'm not about to write a book even I would not read.

Best wishes.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Well I just read people are generally more productive the larger the city they live in, something to do with the more densely populated the area is the more chance encounters & different cultural/social/intellectual ideas they are exposed to. Also depends on the layout of the city & it's culture. A tech person is going to be more productive living in silicon valley than some random small town for instance.

[Newfie]

Ya know there is land available for a fairly reasonable price in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The climate ain't that bad and there are honest to goodness farms in the area. Also it's slated to get warmer and wetter in future years. Not you deep, deep topsoil, but doable.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'Y')a know there is land available for a fairly reasonable price in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The climate ain't that bad and there are honest to goodness farms in the area. Also it's slated to get warmer and wetter in future years. Not you deep, deep topsoil, but doable.

[Newfie]

I find living or working in the city doable. Living AND working in the city is NOT, much to my surprise.

We are now working part time, half in the city, half on the boat in a small marina. It is not unusual to see several bald eagles in a day. That exposure to nature is somehow a requirement for my soul. Full time in the city was just terribly depressing.

Yet I know others who find it invigorating. Gracie Burns said, "I love Nature, as long as it stays in its place, outside my window."

I find I then to travel to remote spots, isolated villages and islands with no roads or minimal infrastructure. It is a hoot to go to a landlocked town of 200, then find that every house has some cottage outside of town to "get away to."

As to total self sufficiency, I think that implies near total isolation. Humans, by and large, are just not worried for that. We need some interaction on a regular basis, and many of us also need some solitude. True loners are rare and treated with suspicion. I recall a story of some guy who move into the Canadian West. He became a mountain man. But the local Mountie boss just couldn't stand it, so he sent officers to investigate, who took some hired guides. Mutual suspicion lead to an exchange of gunfire where a Mountie was killed. They tracked that guy for two years through the mountains until they finally shot him. They never ever did figure out who he was, just that he was someone who wanted to be left alone.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'E')xactly Loki. The flour never runs out. Wheat grows on 10" rain per year, little need for irrigation everywhere back East. And the really neat thing is that flour is it's own ball and chain. You don't need the peopledozers. The more crispy breading folks eat, the more addicted and compliant they get. It's an endocrine thing. Fat and happy. Throw in an occasional twinkie for good behavior and the slaves will be happy to assemble Ipods till the end of time. White flour has always been the primary tool of oppression.