[Newfie]

That would work only in warm climates. In temperate climates you need much more land for wood lots, to heat. Or, it's a return to the crafters Black House. Sort of a peat igloo with a common fireplace.

[KaiserJeep]

"Stabbing the beast" to some people means advocating that one drops out of a consumer lifestyle, for one more environmentally sound. Based on what I have read in this thread, to other people it means going over the top, environmental activism, and sabotage of the system itself.

I'm pretty certain that environmental activism has never had any net benefit. I remember when activists were torching new SUVs. Then I remember investigations at several Silicon Valley car dealerships where only last year's SUV models got burned. Activism had become a tool for clearing dead inventory.

Likewise I don't know anybody who believes that the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd ever accomplished anything positive. In the end, pretty much all the media coverage was negative.

Tree sitters around here don't even make the news any more. The various law enforcement agencies have developed techniques and equipment to get them out of the trees.

I would advise that you use care when you skirt the edge between criticism of Capitalism and actual activism, which potentially increases human misery. Recent history says that even causing a traffic jam at rush hour is enough to heap popular media scorn on the cause you thought you were promoting.



Even the picture associated with "Stabbing the Beast" above does not really mean what you think it does. It depicts a member of the harmful human species that is destroying the Earth, stabbing an endangered species of apex predator shark, from a wooden fishing vessel which is about to create an environmentally damaging slick of engine oil and diesel fuel. (Yes I know it's really a cybernetic shark prop on a wooden prop boat, and that the actor Robert Shaw would go on to star in yet another Peter Benchley novel-turned-movie after that.)

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he irony being that some of the now least privileged may be some of the best situated to survive.

[lasseter]

There is a lot of talk about living off the land, but how many of these backwoods community inhabitants also recieve government pensions or food stamps? How many use a little gas from time to time, or utilize electricity in their homes, either grid or personal solar? Where do their cloths come from, their salt?

I doubt any communities are truly sef sustaining unless they are in the back blocks of India, and even those may barter for salt that is brought in from the coasts on diesel trucks. My brother and I have decided to have as many solar panels in storage as we have up in the air on our retreat homes, but this is only a buffer, not a sustainable solution.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lasseter', 'T')here is a lot of talk about living off the land, but how many of these backwoods community inhabitants also recieve government pensions or food stamps? How many use a little gas from time to time, or utilize electricity in their homes, either grid or personal solar? Where do their cloths come from, their salt?

[dolanbaker]

Unfortunately (for those who desire to be completely "free") interdependency on others is essential to have any kind of quality of life. There is simply insufficient space to live like a hunter-gatherer and unless you have a large amount of land, insufficient space to supply yourself with all the locally produced food that you would need to sustain yourself & family. Even if you had the land, would you be able to work it without external help.

[Newfie]

Or keep it from being taken from you.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
But we didn't come up with that plan because we thought we were going to stick it to the Man. You've heard of Jeavons who said the more you conserve the more someone else will consume? That is my view of FF energy as well as Chinese Chachkas.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'W')e can talk about how conservation = efficiency = fragility. But the Jeavons' Paradox just doesn't apply to a resource-constrained world.

[Newfie]

I too believe the global economy is very fragile and susceptible to collapse.

I tend to believe it will collapse, with or without a push.

In either case I don't think will be pretty, nor will there be much difference if it is today or two years from now. If we are talking 10 years, then maybe timing makes a difference.

Pops, do you think global finance would survive unscathed in the event the CA drought lingers for another two or three years?

[ralfy]

According to the chart in this article,

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/04/11/pe ... e-problem/

oil consumption is dropping for EU, the U.S., and Japan but rising for the rest of the world. The net is increasing consumption. Also, the drop in consumption may be partly attributed to economic problems.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') always say that the demand side of supply and demand is made of desire plus ability to pay, in a supply constrained world then the real action comes on the demand side where a decrease in my desire increases somone elses ability to pay - or vice versa.

[lasseter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lasseter', 'T')here is a lot of talk about living off the land, but how many of these backwoods community inhabitants also recieve government pensions or food stamps? How many use a little gas from time to time, or utilize electricity in their homes, either grid or personal solar? Where do their cloths come from, their salt?

[sparky]

.
Well , on the survivalist scale , I'm so cool it's freezing
no preparation whatsoever , inner city living ( go Roosters !! go !)
full service and conveniences ,as long as it last , use and abuse it !

my plan for the End of the World is to run for it and pillage the survivalists
no problem with cannibalism either , as long as its someone else
as any women or Fijian will tell you , men are pigs

survival is not about the planning ....it's about the attitude

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
Speaking of which, the more I think about Holgrem's assertion about collapsing the economy, the more I agree with him to a degree.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'A')ccording to the chart in this article,

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/04/11/pe ... e-problem/

oil consumption is dropping for EU, the U.S., and Japan but rising for the rest of the world. The net is increasing consumption. Also, the drop in consumption may be partly attributed to economic problems.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'W')ithin the confines of the Jevons' paradox, yes, your decrease in demand leads to a lower price, making it more affordable for other folks to increase their use of oil. But in a peak oil world, the price is determined as much by supply as it is demand, increasingly so as the resource diminishes.

Add a deflationary depression like the Great Recession, not to mention the fact that new sources of oil depend on high prices, and Jevons seems less and less relevant.

Jevons is one of my pet peeves, he's used far too often to argue against energy conservation

[ROCKMAN]

sparky - "survival is not about the planning ....it's about the attitude". I feel the recent US efforts to "export democracy" to the ME, costing us $trillion and countless lives, support your point.

Above someone pointed out that "the meek shale inherit the earth”. You can't inherit nuthin if you're dead. And if you do happen to survive you’ll only inherit what the unmeek have left behind. And given the current stewardship of the planet it doesn’t look like what is left will be worth having.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 's')parky - "survival is not about the planning ....it's about the attitude". I feel the recent US efforts to "export democracy" to the ME, costing us $trillion and countless lives, support your point.

Above someone pointed out that "the meek shale inherit the earth”. You can't inherit nuthin if you're dead. And if you do happen to survive you’ll only inherit what the unmeek have left behind. And given the current stewardship of the planet it doesn’t look like what is left will be worth having.