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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby Threepwood » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:29:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'W')ith a productive economy, you have something to trade for those resources you don't have


Nonsense. For every exporter, there needs to be an importer that is able to pay for the imports, and that ability depends either the fact that he has some abundant resources of his own, or is able to export something to a third party. A world where everyone is manufacturing stuff for everyone else, ad infinitum, is a fantasy and it was never even remotely real. It's an economist's equivalent of a perpetuum mobile.


I prefer that model over the other one where everybody gives each other money for doing nothing!
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby Threepwood » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:33:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')$75 oil could start to turn off the oil drills in the US.


RAND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby Strummer » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:35:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'I') prefer that model over the other one where everybody gives each other money for doing nothing!


Like this one? http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united- ... e-of-trade
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:43:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')$75 oil could start to turn off the oil drills in the US.


RAND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?


That might actually come true in constant dollars. But because of spending excesses and how much the money supply is enlarging, we will represent $30-40 per barrel as $300-400 in inflated currency.

But we are still going to run out of economicly recoverable oil.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby Threepwood » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:53:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')$75 oil could start to turn off the oil drills in the US.


RAND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?


That might actually come true in constant dollars. But because of spending excesses and how much the money supply is enlarging, we will represent $30-40 per barrel as $300-400 in inflated currency.

But we are still going to run out of economicly recoverable oil.


when is that again? still 10-20 years away like it's always been?
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:54:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'I')'m aware that financial pundits are conservative in straying from current prices, it's not wise to expose yourself too far out on a limb and have that blunder on your record, underestimating a move can always be more easily attributed to unforeseen variables
What about the rest of my post? You are ignoring a key point: All of that expensive exploration and drilling depends on high oil prices. You know, that increasing production you keep pointing out? If you are right and oil falls to $50 for a sustained period, all of that drilling would cease and oil supplies would start to shrink. Only currently producing conventional wells are economical to produce at that price. Sustained $50 oil would mean no new production coming online other that what is already in the pipe. We would have to be content with current production that continues to dwindle as older fields age.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere's the short version of why forecasts of low long-term oil and natural gas prices are almost certainly wrong: It costs more than that to get the stuff out of the ground. The people who are predicting $50, now $45 oil, and $3, now $2 natural gas (in the United States) for as far as the eye can see believe that such prices will result from the already widespread application of current technology. And yet, the very companies that use that technology to extract these hydrocarbons say that there's no way they can produce them profitably at those prices. ExxonMobil's CEO said last year, "We are losing our shirts" selling natural gas at such low prices. Forecasts for much lower oil prices would also represent losses on new wells for most oil producers.

Here's why: The full cost of producing new oil for the 50 largest publicly traded oil companies in the world is $92 a barrel according to Bernstein Research. While average costs are lower because they include previously discovered conventional oil which is cheaper and easier to produce, the Bernstein report challenges the notion that new technologies will lead to cheaper oil. Those technologies including hydraulic fracturing will make it possible to extract previously uneconomic oil resources--but only at very high and rising costs. In fact, the cost of producing the marginal new barrel of oil has been rising at 14 percent per year since 2001, Bernstein says. Finding, developing and producing new oil isn't getting cheaper; it's getting much more expensive. So while oil prices could fall below the cost of producing new barrels for a while, they simply could not stay there unless the world were to become content with ever shrinking supplies of oil. No company will continue to drill for oil when each new well loses money.

So given that the world will probably continue to seek expanded supplies of oil, prices in the long run below $92 a barrel seem implausible. And, that floor is likely to rise as the oil resources that companies are now forced to pursue become costlier and more difficult to extract. We've already extracted the easy-to-get oil in the first 150 years of the oil age; now comes the hard stuff.

When it comes to oil, major agencies such as the U.S. Energy Information Administration and the International Energy Agency recognize this reality and predict continuing high oil prices.

barring a deep economic depression, we can look forward to prices for oil and natural gas that are consistently above the cost of production and therefore far above the bizarrely low forecasts in the air today. In fact, we should expect costs to continue to escalate as we seek out resources that are ever more difficult to extract and refine.
Not at that price: Why long-term forecasts for cheap oil and natural gas are baseless

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the world of energy, an unsettling trend has emerged over the past few years. The world's largest oil companies are spending massive amounts of money on new oil and gas projects each year, yet their production continues to stagnate or decline.

For instance, ExxonMobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, reported a 3.5% first-quarter decline in its total oil and natural gas production from the same quarter a year ago, while French oil major Total SA said its production fell 2% in the first quarter from year-ago levels.What's going on?

Why oil is becoming more expensive to extract
In a nutshell, new investments by the oil majors simply haven't resulted in enough output growth to offset declining production from maturing fields. It has to do with where the marginal barrel of oil is coming from.

With the era of "easy oil" a distant relic, energy companies are being forced to explore for and produce oil in harder to reach unconventional locations. Some of these include U.S. shale, Canadian oil sands, and deepwater sites off the coasts of Africa and Brazil.

While these sources have contributed substantially to global supplies, their costs of production are exorbitantly high due to the sophisticated equipment and highly skilled personnel they require. In fact, according to some estimates, oil prices need to stay above $85-$90 per barrel for many of these projects to warrant investment. As the sources of marginal supply have shifted from conventional fields toward unconventional ones, the industry's marginal costs of production – the expenses associated with producing the last barrel of oil – have soared.

The bottom line
As these developments highlight, the marginal barrel of oil has become – and will continue to become – more complicated and more expensive to extract. Already, this trend is evident in the diminishing returns from upstream capital expenditures.
One of the Biggest Challenges Facing Oil Companies

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'R')AND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).
That prediction was made in 2005. Fortunately, we can fact check this against reality. Did shale costs actually decline to $30-$48? Nope:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he rolling five-year forward oil price has been fairly stable at $90/barrel (bbl) the past few years, roughly the marginal cost of shale oil production.

Often overlooked is the likelihood that continued U.S.-centric growth in shale oil production will make non-OPEC output more sensitive to down moves in prices, more rapidly establishing a floor to oil prices should an adverse economic event occur. Specifically, Brent at $75/bbl today would likely do more damage to the 12-month outlook for supplies from reduced shale investment than in previous periods.

Although shale production has benefited from the widespread nature of reserves, short lead times between drilling and production and the large number of small players – shale extraction and production companies have less financial wherewithal than IOCs and national oil companies (NOCs) and would likely adjust spending more readily as prices decline, helping to more quickly establish a floor under the oil market. In essence, $90/bbl is today what $20/bbl was at the turn of the century. Shale Oil: A Deep Dive Into Implications for the Global Economy and Commodity Investors
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 14:11:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'R')AND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?

I'm not too worried about that happening. The wells won't get any shallower or the horizontal legs any shorter. The gallons of fracking fluid won't decrease and the crew won't take a cut in pay and the diesel to run the equipment won't cost any less. And they are not likely to find much sweeter rock to frack. About the only economy of scale comes from the pipeline or rail spur that once built could be amortized over more barrels shipped.
$30 fracked oil? Yah right and I have a bridge in NY to sell you.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 14:13:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')$75 oil could start to turn off the oil drills in the US.


RAND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?


That might actually come true in constant dollars. But because of spending excesses and how much the money supply is enlarging, we will represent $30-40 per barrel as $300-400 in inflated currency.

But we are still going to run out of economicly recoverable oil.


when is that again? still 10-20 years away like it's always been?


I don't see much purpose in trying to solve an equation where every term is a constantly changing variable.

However, there can only be one result when the demand for FF keeps growing, and the supply keeps getting harder to recover. Come the day when digging or pumping is no longer economicly justifiable, and the FF boom will abruptly be over.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby John_A » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:02:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', '&')quot;
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me skeptical of peak oil- all this chart needs is a Carmina Burana soundtrack , a grim voice over and it could fade to some nice apocalyptic footage then it would be really convincing!


That was what everyone was doing about the time this website fired up. Everyone knows better than to fall for that level of hysteria based on the evidence of what has happened since. Give it a few years, half a generation perhaps, than the idea can recycled again with credibility. Among the young anyway.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby John_A » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:04:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threepwood', 'R')AND predicts the costs of [shale oil] would decline to $35–48 per barrel ($220–300/m3) within 12 years. After achieving the milestone of 1 billion barrels (160×106 m3), its costs would decline further to $30–40 per barrel ($190–250/m3).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I get the feeling many here would be horribly disappointed if this happened?

I'm not too worried about that happening. The wells won't get any shallower or the horizontal legs any shorter. The gallons of fracking fluid won't decrease and the crew won't take a cut in pay and the diesel to run the equipment won't cost any less. And they are not likely to find much sweeter rock to frack. About the only economy of scale comes from the pipeline or rail spur that once built could be amortized over more barrels shipped.
$30 fracked oil? Yah right and I have a bridge in NY to sell you.


Once upon a time it took 30 days to drill a mile long lateral in the Marcellus. Now it takes 10. Some companies are shooting for 7 now.

You do understand what happens when it takes fewer days to drill a well, on the single most expensive piece of equipment involved in the process, right?
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:14:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('John_A', 'O')nce upon a time it took 30 days to drill a mile long lateral in the Marcellus. Now it takes 10. Some companies are shooting for 7 now.

You do understand what happens when it takes fewer days to drill a well, on the single most expensive piece of equipment involved in the process, right?
You do know that the marginal cost for a barrel of oil has been increasing, not decreasing, right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')S shale oil is increasing the marginal cost of production
New technologies such as fracking in the US shale industry are boosting crude oil supplies – but these new “technological barrels” are flowing at a high cost. Sanford C. Bernstein, the Wall Street research company, calls the rapid increase in production costs “the dark side of the golden age of shale”. In a recent analysis, it estimates that non-Opec marginal cost of production rose last year to $104.5 a barrel, up more than 13 per cent from $92.3 a barrel in 2011.

Christophe de Margerie, chief executive of Total, the French oil producer, last month warned that technology is not reducing marginal costs in the oil industry. Instead, he said: “What we call technological barrels are day after day more expensive.”

The trend of rising production costs in the US shale and Canadian tar sands is of particular concern, as the International Energy Agency anticipates that 40 per cent of the incremental oil production capacity over the next five years will come from North America.

“Net income margins in the sector are now at the lowest in a decade,” the firm said after reviewing the economics of the world’s 50-largest listed oil companies. “This is not sustainable. Either prices must rise or costs must fall,” it added.

Sanford C. Bernstein estimates that the marginal cost of oil production has increased about 250 per cent over the last decade, rising from just under $30 a barrel in 2002 to a record of $104.5 a barrel last year.
Costs rise for ‘technological barrels’ of oil
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby John_A » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:23:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')I don't see much purpose in trying to solve an equation where every term is a constantly changing variable.


Plenty of purpose. Calculating an answer incorporating the uncertainty of the timing of financing for a project on the discounted cash flow. Or incorporating the probability density function of an input (well initial production estimates for example) on an estimate of ultimate recovery based on the probability density function of initial decline, uncertain but expected range of timing of transition to pseudo steady state flow regime and a range of operating future operating costs and an uncertain but estimated escalation of oil and gas pricing in the future.



PS: I'm trying really hard not to respond to this question by saying "Correlation" but that might be a confusing answer for those who don't build stochastic models.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby John_A » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:32:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('John_A', 'O')nce upon a time it took 30 days to drill a mile long lateral in the Marcellus. Now it takes 10. Some companies are shooting for 7 now.

You do understand what happens when it takes fewer days to drill a well, on the single most expensive piece of equipment involved in the process, right?
You do know that the marginal cost for a barrel of oil has been increasing, not decreasing, right?


I know that marginal price has been going up, yes. I know that actual AFE costs have been going down. Imagine that, the companies making enough money to continue proving Art Berman wrong on profitability for the next 20,000 wells drilled!!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Sanford C. Bernstein estimates that the marginal cost of oil production has increased about 250 per cent over the last decade, rising from just under $30 a barrel in 2002 to a record of $104.5 a barrel last year.
Costs rise for ‘technological barrels’ of oil


Makes me wonder how they calculate marginal cost? So less CapEx is needed, OpEx is still reasonable last I looked although vertical well workovers are certainly more expensive than they once were, kind of interesting because those rigs aren't always enough to do workovers on the deeper horizontals. I wonder how they can claim that the cost per barrel is higher than the netback price of a barrel for all the folks making a mint in the Bakken?

Certainly under almost any metric I am familiar with, including a hefty reserve discounting rate, these things aren't costing $104/bbl. If that were true, all new drilling in North Dakota would stop. Yesterday. So if I can calculate netback +NPV from known CapEx and OpEx, let alone undiscounted numbers, where the hell did Sanford get his information? Maybe what he is calling marginal cost is different than what others are?
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby John_A » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:36:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')But we are still going to run out of economicly recoverable oil.


Well, after we manufacture another couple of trillion barrels of liquid fuels anyway. And by then inflation will have made all the uneconomic stuff, economic. Funny how that happens.

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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 16:25:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('John_A', 'M')akes me wonder how they calculate marginal cost? So less CapEx is needed, OpEx is still reasonable last I looked although vertical well workovers are certainly more expensive than they once were, kind of interesting because those rigs aren't always enough to do workovers on the deeper horizontals.
Marginal costs are always higher than cash costs. This article is on the gold mining industry but it's the same general idea:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his marginal cost can be divided into two parts: cash cost of production and other costs (exploration, construction, maintenance, etc...)

The gold price has always followed the marginal cost of suppliers throughout history. The correlation between gold prices and gold mining cash costs between 1980 and 2010 stood at 0.85, which means that the correlation is quite high.

While cash operating costs only went up from $200/ounce in 2001 to $700/ounce in 2013, the total marginal cash costs went up from $300/ounce to $1,300/ounce in that same period. So, the biggest move in total cash cost came from overhead, discovery, construction and sustaining capital. In the 1980s, we see that cash operating costs contributed the most to the total cost of mining. Today on the other hand, the biggest chunk of the costs go to overhead, discovery, construction and maintenance. Another way to look at it is that the exploration and development of a gold mine is taking an increasingly higher share in the overall cost of mining.

For investors, the key point to keep in mind is that cash operating costs aren't a good indicator for the gold price. You need to look at the overall replacement costs and that includes all additional costs to mine gold. That total cost will drive the price of gold.

Some people say gold will go back below $1,000/ounce. This is not possible because marginal cash costs are rising and we know that there is a high correlation between marginal cash costs and the gold price. investors need to monitor the total cash cost of gold mining in order to predict the trend in the gold price itself.
Marginal Cost Of Production

Cash costs have also been rising for shale oil:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he marginal cost of oil production has increased about 250 per cent over the last decade, rising from just under $30 a barrel in 2002 to a record of $104.5 a barrel last year. At the same time, cash costs have risen from $9.70 a barrel in 2002 to $44.20 a barrel last year.
Costs rise for ‘technological barrels’ of oil

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('John_A', 'I') wonder how they can claim that the cost per barrel is higher than the netback price of a barrel for all the folks making a mint in the Bakken?
Certainly under almost any metric I am familiar with, including a hefty reserve discounting rate, these things aren't costing $104/bbl. If that were true, all new drilling in North Dakota would stop. Yesterday. So if I can calculate netback +NPV from known CapEx and OpEx, let alone undiscounted numbers, where the hell did Sanford get his information? Maybe what he is calling marginal cost is different than what others are?
I haven't read the report, but I think the highest cost figures were not for the Bakken or Eagle Ford. Those are two of the most profitable plays around. The highest figures were for the newer plays.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')roductivity of the newest plays to come on drillers' radars have not come close to what's been coming out of the Bakken in North Dakota and Eagle Ford in Texas. And even for those two, he says, peak recovery rates of new wells drilled have been declining and flat, respectively. As a result, drillers are moving on to less productive basins and lower-quality acreage. "The prime locations have already been drilled," he writes.

All this means crude prices will have to go back up:
"In order to maintain current levels of overall production, marginal conventional production must be maintained with high oil prices. We expect marginal cost inflation will continue as well productivity declines, resulting in an oil price forecast that differs significantly from the forward curves. We forecast $96/bbl WTI for 2013, $101/bbl WTI for 2014, and longer term prices above $120/bbl and rising after 2017." AllianceBernstein: The Shale Oil Revolution Is Already Ending And Oil Prices Are Going To Surge
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 17:18:26

k - “ExxonMobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, reported a 3.5% first-quarter decline in its total oil and natural gas production from the same quarter a year ago”. Actually the reality of how much oil/NG XOM produced doesn’t necessarily equate to how much new oil/NG they’ve found. XOM likes to brag about how they replace their production every year. But consider this: the year XOM acquired XTO that acquisition represented more than 80% of the reserves XOM added to their books that year. IOW they aren’t replacing all their production with newly developed reserves but just transferring some of them from another company to their books. Just because XOM says the added X bbls of oil to their reserves doesn’t mean they’ve added X bbls of oil to the global reserve count. Likewise they may have produced 3.5% less that 1st quarter but that doesn’t mean the 96.5% they did produce represents new production they found. Much of it had been found years earlier and was just transferred to them.
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Re: 10 Basic Arguments of Peak Oil

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 10 Dec 2013, 17:51:56

Thanks Rockman, I head something similar before. IE, much of the "new barrels" by the majors was acquired through acquisitions. Not to get too far off topic, but it seems to me that while the supermajors might live in the land of the setting sun, other oil companies are in ascendance. Such as the national oil companies(NOCs), oil service companies, and independents.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the 1950s the seven sisters controlled some 85% of global reserves. Today over 90% of reserves are under the control of national oil companies (NOCs). The big NOCs now make up six of the ten largest oil producers in the world. Saudi Aramco, Brazil’s Petrobras, Petronas of Malaysia and others think they have learned what the supermajors have to teach them. Their governments have used oil revenues to build up the big pots of cash needed to fund giant oil and gasfields.

What is more, the supermajors are no longer the only game in town when it comes to providing the NOCs with any help they may need. Oilfield-service companies started to burgeon in the 1980s when big companies thought it wise to outsource drilling and other aspects of production. Oil was relatively easy to come by, and operating a rig was a low-margin business. Firms which grew up then, such as Halliburton and Schlumberger, can now offer NOCs a wide range of support services. These companies are also moving beyond just providing services for a fee; they are taking on project management and shouldering some of the financial risk in projects they are involved in.

Helped by the service companies, the larger and more ambitious NOCs are not merely less dependent on supermajors than before—they are increasingly competing with them on big projects outside their home markets and in the development of new technologies. According to Bain & Company, a consultancy, the supermajors invested $4.4 billion in R&D in 2011. The oil-service companies invested $2.3 billion. But five of the biggest NOCs invested $5.3 billion. Since 2005 the R&D budgets of those five NOCs have been growing twice as fast the supermajors.

More recently smaller and nimbler independent oil firms specialising in exploration and production have started stealing a march in new territories and technologies. Shale gas is an obvious example of a novelty the supermajors did not expect. The American gas boom was driven by small companies such as Mitchell Energy. Bain points out that this was bad for the big companies not just because they missed an opportunity to produce more gas. They also missed an opportunity to master new technology that they could then have profited from and exported around the world.

All told, the supermajors are now responsible for only 25% of capital spending in exploration and production. Exxon has been the world’s biggest spender on exploration and production since the mid-1980s. This year, PetroChina will take its place.
The day of the huge integrated international oil company is drawing to a close
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