[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') swear on a stack of grandmas oil royalty check stubs that I wasn't reading Greer before I wrote that!

[Newfie]

I tend to break it three ways: law giving, explaining, community.

I agree that traditional religion has diminished in the former two, but is still a powerful community tool.

But now we worship the silent hand and endless growth as explanations, whileTSA provides all the law giving we can want.

Our (Western) needs have not changed, just how we satisfy them.

[Pops]

Yes, exactly, the social need for fellowship will always be there, it is inborn.

But as the questions once answered with miracles, magic and self-referential hokum are more and more answered by science, and the exclusionary, autocratic, many times misogynistic philosophies from the past become more isolated, where does the next new church find it's mojo?

My thought is that the new church strips away the tacked on human centered idols and moves back to the ancient traditions more in tune with the natural world. Instead of the inwardly human focused "died for your sins so you can keep sinning and live forever" easter story, we go back to the the "we are sure happy to have survived thus far without eating each other" celebration. Perhaps with a catchier name...

Maybe it's less radical than that but maybe religion evolves away from human centered teachings when we realize, finally, that we are not only literally not the center of the universe but that figuratively speaking the natural world does not revolve around us either. Perhaps after the natural world jumps up and slaps the snot out of us.

So instead of spouting threats and damnation and intimidation, religion actually acts as spiritual guide. Actually acting out the distinction that appears to be forming between popes Benedict and Francis. The former a double-down defender of the institution and the later, apparently, one who sees the church more as servant than master.

Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath.

[Ibon]

Growth and progress has been mostly linear for the past couple of generations with absolutely no kick back from natural limits. Is it any surprise the masses perservere in their belief at humans being the masters and commanders? Secular belief in technology and progress clearly reinforces this. Religious belief in the creator that put this all here for our benefit clearly does as well.

Humans see themselves as center stage because we have been.

Oh god are we in for a hell of a surprise.

Does anyone doubt the transformative nature of this surprise when consequences return nature to her rightful place ?

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
Oh god are we in for a hell of a surprise.

Does anyone doubt the transformative nature of this surprise when consequences return nature to her rightful place ?

[PrestonSturges]

Beware the person who thinks he is spiritual leader!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The individual may state with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror has been brought into the much freer old world, but he will not be able to deny the fact that since then the world has been threatened and dominated by this compulsion, and that compulsion is broken only by compulsion, and terror by terror. Only then can a new condition be created by construction.
-Mein Kampf

[Newfie]

Amen!

[PrestonSturges]

One of the main points of the Eric Hoffer book is that the best leaders are the people that really don't want the job. Washington turned down being king, Lincoln aged 20 years in one term, Grant would have been a poor farmer if it weren't for the Civil War.

There is nothing in the history of any country to suggest that business people are better political leaders. Veterans do better than average if they have a realistic distaste for war, but that still leaves Mao, Hitler, and Stalin. Many revolutionary leaders are nobodies with nothing to lose.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'A')men!

[Newfie]

Ibon,

Haven't made it to the new thread yet, I will.

In the mean time I came across this from Dennis Meadows...


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ORMAT: Do you fear an end of democracy?

Meadows: I see two trends. On the one hand, the disruption of states into smaller units, such as regions such as Catalonia, and on the other hand a strong, centralised superpower. Not a state, but a fascist combination of industry, police and military. Maybe there will be in the future even both. Democracy is indeed a very young socio-political experiment. And it does not currently exist. It produced only crises that it cannot solve. Democracy contributes nothing at the moment to our survival. This system will collapse from within, not because of an external enemy.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'O')ne of the main points of the Eric Hoffer book is that the best leaders are the people that really don't want the job.

[Quinny]

Why are Gods or Leaders needed?

DIY is good!

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'W')hy are Gods or Leaders needed?

DIY is good!

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'C')an events be severe enough to actually disentegrate the polarity between the secular and spiritual world views and find a common place to worship and revere our planet and to protect it?

[ROCKMAN]

Pops – “If it is to be a part of a community and have fellowship and maybe feel superior to the nonbelievers…” But that’s why I’ve come back to peakoil…is that bad thing? LOL. BTW like me do you also make fun of agnostics for being wossies that won’t commit to a potential eternity in hell?

[Newfie]

We congregate for the same reason bees, and termites do...because (historically) it offered a survival advantage to your group. That is the other evolutionary pathway, survival of the fittest group.

I too am very much a loner and an atheist. But I also did a ling stint as a active member of an Ethical Humanist congregation which gave me opportunity to consider why people gather. I know that for me I can take something from the interaction, but that it drains me. I need to get away and detoxify. My Wife is the exception, yet we are much alike.

The group evolution explanation is a very powerful explanation of how we developed our ethical traits...bravery, compassion, altruism, sel sacrifice, et al. Ocams razor.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')I too am very much a loner and an atheist.

[vision-master]

But the vast majority of humanity are communal and actually do not want the lonliness of their autonomy and prefer to adhere to religions and group think.

So what is your ideology (belief system), religion or theory of evolution?

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'O')ne of the main points of the Eric Hoffer book is that the best leaders are the people that really don't want the job.

[PrestonSturges]

The other obstacle to change is the use of dialectic techniques of absorbing the critics language, making coherent debate impossible through the Orwellian use of DoubleSpeak. Hoffer doesn't really explore this, but he does describe how the revolutionary slogans are swiftly adopted by counter-revolutionary forces, and the revolution itself becomes an oppressive tool of the status quo - maybe a new status quo, or maybe just the same old status quo.

People who get elected yapping about the "Constitution" write blatantly unconstitutional laws, and they come back again and again and again looking for gaps in the Constitution. Most Constitutions are very short, so you can truthfully say that there is no right to vote, there is no right to habeas corpus, there is no right to privacy. So people that run on the "Constitution" are basically signalling their goal of destroying constitutional rule.

"Save Social Security" means destroy Social Security.

The Federalist Society represents the anti-Federalist "states rights" neoconfederates, just the opposite of its name

People like Scalia who have spent decades complaining about "activist judges who legislate from the bench" now say it's the courts job to legislate from the bench and reverse the legislative branch....just because.

People who claim to be fighting "Fascism" are generally spewing most of the classic Fascist talking points.

People who claim to fighting "racism" can certainly be found on white supremacist web sites and hoarding ammo for their fantasy "race war."

People who claim to be filled with love are likely to be sidetracked by apocalyptic fantasies where they hunt down and kill anyone that disagrees with them.