[FrankRichards]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'F')unny. We pay $5 a gallon and have no problems with our harvesters.

[RonMN]

Ludi, Thanks for the links & such. I'll definately check them out to see if they're viable ways or just "pie in the sky"...

Have you tested these methods for yourself yet? If so, do they really work as described?

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'T')he cold hard fact is that most "millionairs" got to that position by

1- working hard every day of thier lives.
2- taking calculated risks
3- spending SMART...not buying crap products...not buying fancy cars...not going on vacation...

but slowly, smartly, accumulating their wealth over years & years. I saw 1 show on casinos where a worker said he saw bill gates a few times...and it was RARE that bill would ever gamble but on the occasions that he did, he never bet over 5 dollars!

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy would it be considered a "luxury" to produce the same or greater yields of food as conventional agriculture for less work?

[MacG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'F')unny. We pay $5 a gallon and have no problems with our harvesters.

[Cyrus]

Another BiGG problem..who is going to harvest are biofuels that SOME PEOPLE believe will be an absolute solution and the way we live will not change at all?

[Pops]

Straying a little more off topic (and to butt heads with Ludi ), I don’t understand what is “permanent” about planting tomatoes under a tree when they will need to be planted somewhere else when they become shaded. It doesn’t matter if you are in the Kalahari – tomatoes don’t grow well in the shade.

I have a great little book from 1920 something (actually a condensed version of an earlier book) titled “Tree Crops - A Permanent Agriculture”. The author points to several examples of generations of people in different regions, planting tree crops instead of row crops; chestnuts in Corsica, persimmons in China, walnuts, mulberries, oaks, etc.

The idea of permanent planting isn’t new, nor is it new to me; I’ve planted persimmons, mulberries (pig food) wild plum, and a variety of small vine fruit, grapes and berries on the new place so far, with plans for much more. I’m improving the makeup of the pastures, hedgerows and woodlot as well. After several years of merrily “spreading straw and sprinkling seed”, I’ll also have several thousand sq ft of fast warming, well drained and pretty weed free raised beds – with a winter cover crop (wheat perhaps) killed in the spring I won’t need to till, just plant through the mulch. To me those are somewhat permanent improvements that will be here for my grandkids if they want them.

However, though much of it only needs doing once, I don’t know how those things get done without work – trees don’t plant themselves, a hedgerow doesn’t lay itself, surprisingly that straw doesn’t magically appear at the edge of the garden (even killed mulch needs to be planted and killed). Just harvesting and preserving enough food to last a year with a little left to sell, while more enjoyable than sitting in a marketing meeting, doesn’t happen from the lawn chair. It’s a far cry from homegrown ‘maters to growing enough real food to live on.


But of course the point of the thread is harvesting grains; apples and tomatoes are nice treats but they don’t keep many people from starving. 620 million tons of wheat was produced last year and that doesn’t happen by sprinkling seeds.

----

Just to repeat my real point here, the problem as I see it will be that pip and C-V and everyone in the same boat see that the cost of inputs are rising and the income isn’t (due to the market setting the price and not the farmer) and so decide to either:
Change crops (even diverting 15% of production to oil crops as pip mentioned)
Go smaller as C-V said
Or quit altogether

Because so many farmers are in similar situations it could be that a large percentage decides to take one or another of those courses at the same time – a Tipping Point is the currently fashionable term. Consumers will see the biggest rise in food price over the shortest period ever and it won’t necessarily be due to a huge hike in prices – just an incremental erosion of the farmer’s ability to make a living.
----

BTW pstarr, according to this article from 6/3/05 (which I posted elsewhere) Taskforce is correct and in fact ag like most industries has become more – not less efficient since ’76:

“The US food system uses over 10 quadrillion Btu (10,551 quadrillion Joules) of energy each year, as much as France's total annual energy consumption. Growing food accounts for only one-fifth of this. The other four-fifths is used to move, process, package, sell, and store food after it leaves the farm. Some 28% of energy used in agriculture goes to fertilizer manufacturing, 7% goes to irrigation, and 34% is consumed as diesel and gasoline by farm vehicles used to plant, till, and harvest crops. The rest goes to pesticide production, grain drying, and facility operations”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 3Dj01.html


(I guess I don't work too hard - I've been sitting here for an hour!)

[Ludi]

Pops, I don't know why you want to argue about permaculture. Really, this discussion completely flabbergasts me. I haven't a clue what you're trying to accomplish. Do you know anything about permaculture? I guess not, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me why I'm planting tomatoes. Incidentally, tomatoes like a little shade here or they can get sunburned. Yes, it's like the Kalahari here in TX. So anyway, this will just be us arguing about growing plants, which is stupid. You go do things your way; I'm not telling you to do anything different than what you're doing. You can cast doubt on my knowledge all you want, if that's what your goal is. Go ahead, shouldn't be too hard, I'm as dumb as a box of hammers apparently. But I do trust the knowledge of these guys who have been farming most of their lives (Fukuoka and Mollison). Why you think I've been claiming the knowledge these men are promoting is "new" I dunno. Also, I don't recall ever saying no one ever needs to do work, just that I don't like hard work and these techniques seem to eliminate a lot of it. Maybe we have different definitions of "work" and "hard."No, I just have no idea what you're getting at, except to give me a hard time. For what purpose? Havn't a clue, not a clue.

[Pops]

My point is simply this: regardless of the book you read, in order to grow and preserve an amount of food to significantly reduce ones dependency on others entails work, sometime hard, sometimes enjoyable, but work nonetheless. I could care less what label you put on it.

To say it is otherwise and imply over and over that only we, the unenlightened, masochistic Puritans who need occupy our hands lest the devil take over, seems to minimize the oil/food problem and discourages folks from getting out and experimenting in their garden today - which IMO, is more important than which book you read.

And no I don’t know anything about modern “Permaculture” aside from its original definition as ‘permanent (i.e. sustainable) agriculture’.

Not to prolong this OT discussion, but is there anything that I mentioned in the post above that goes against the idea of sustainable agriculture - aside from the lack of a label?

[Taskforce_Unity]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Taskforce_Unity', 'T')he most energy doesn't go to

Maybe in Holland, land of smaller systems. Here the fields are giant, the production automated, and job is energy (oil) intensive. Anyway the book was from 1976.

pete

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'F')unny. We pay $5 a gallon and have no problems with our harvesters.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'M')y point is simply this: regardless of the book you read, in order to grow and preserve an amount of food to significantly reduce ones dependency on others entails work, sometime hard, sometimes enjoyable, but work nonetheless. To say it is otherwise and imply over and over that only we, the unenlightened, masochistic Puritans who need occupy our hands lest the devil take over, seems to minimize the oil/food problem and discourages folks from getting out and experimenting in their garden today - which IMO, is more important than which book you read.

[NEOPO]

I love tomatoes

America needs to lose some weight anyways.

Small NON specialty farms are more efficient.

Permaculture = sustainability.

I ponder overshoot and global sustainability.
Its hurts my noggin so I stop.

What can we do Ludi but try to be beacons of light right?

Screw em - dont let them get you down.

Some of these idiots are still pondering the reality of global warming and they look upon coal as an alternative hahahah

Is anyone surprised that in the USA heart land they are trying to sit "creationism" as an alternative to "evolution"???

We should all start small farming communities.
Allow for visitors and bring new people into the community that compliment the existing group.

Maybe a cheap webpage (sat dsl/sat tv/low wattage laptop ) with images of the structures, people and activities.
If you build it they will come

We plan to take one minute of digital footage per day during the initial construction and developement phases of our project.

Invite the experts for help with radical home construction methods.

Maybe make a movie ...yeah WTF!!! We shall call it "STEAL THIS HOMESTEAD!!!"

I understand that nothing replaces SLC Oil yet there are numerous alternatives that are viable on a small scale.

Hmmm seems to me there is nothing left to say just a whole lot of shit to do!!!
You old DOGS need to lighten up and start Teaching us youngsters what you know before you DIE thanks

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I see people saying, over and over, "everyone will have to work really really hard because that's what farmers have always had to do."

[Aaron]

It's a question of scale.

"Hand farming" for food in no way compares to petro-agriculture.

It's common sense.

By all means go ahead and develop small farms and "permaculture".

My roving band of "reapers" will need a snack.

[Pops]

You are right Lidi, there are easier and harder ways to accomplish things and you’ll probably agree our little discussion of semantics is accomplishing less than nothing.

I do hope people will read your recommendations and as many others as they can to find what works for them.
--------

Ah yes, the South Texas Custom Harvesting And Asset Liquidation Group, LLC, aka: The Reapers; too bad they weren’t publicly traded.

[UncoveringTruths]

I am about a 180 miles west of Ludi my tomatoes are in direct West Texas Sun and there going gangbusters. Were talking a Dry Africa Hot here!

IMO ya’ll are having a good ole fashioned debate similar to how to cook BBQ. Thats another thread though.

What was the topic of the thread?

[Aaron]

Problem Solved

And the Reapers are publicly traded on the secret stock exchange that only myself & my Illuminati brethren have access to.

"Quality Reaping since 1984"

The Reapers -"When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfucker in the room."

Now I'm off to Supermodel Island to harvest our abiotic oil reserves, and ask some more questions about free energy from Tesla's frozen head.

[Ludi]

I'm glad we aren't arguing anymore Pops.

Uncovering Truths Re: tomatoes - seems they are more adaptable than we think. Mine always got sunburned previously. Maybe it's the variety?

Leanan, you is preachin' to the choir.