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THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby JRP3 » Thu 04 Mar 2010, 20:44:06

Yeah lots of exciting products hitting the market. Along with the Zilla there is also the Soliton1, 1000amps continuous with liquid cooling http://www.evnetics.com/
You should check out DIYelectriccar.com if you haven't yet. A good discussion board if you don't like the mailing list format of the EVDL. It's where all the cool kids hang out 8)
I wasn't aware of Universal Battery doing lithium, do you have a link, part number? Are the specs better than SkyEnergy/CAMA and Thundersky?
I'm doing an AC LiFePO4 Fiero myself, (SkyEnergy/CAMA cells).
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby The_Toecutter » Fri 05 Mar 2010, 01:20:24

http://upbattery.en.made-in-china.com/product/VMDnUkyuAHcO/China-Lifepo4-320v-100ah-Battery-Pack-for-Electric-Vehicle.html

Very reasonable in cost, especially for a pack that will likely last in excess of 200,000 miles. There is a Chimo kit car conversion displayed on evalbum.com using this type of battery but in a 144V configuration(21.6 kWh); it can do 100 miles per charge in city driving, and is quite an unaerodynamic conversion, although it is low in weight. The 32 kWh pack linked above in my choice of chassis would offer range comparable to the Tesla Roadster. I'm seriously considering upgrading the UV joints to something that can handle some abuse, as the Zilla and WarP 9" combo will kill them!

Can you direct me to info on your Fiero? I am interested in seeing your setup.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby JRP3 » Fri 05 Mar 2010, 09:11:47

Sure, here's the EValbum listing: http://www.evalbum.com/3156
Here's the build thread with more details, still in progress: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/eviero-ac31-se100-fiero-build-41752.html
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby JRP3 » Fri 05 Mar 2010, 09:24:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', ' ')I'm seriously considering upgrading the UV joints to something that can handle some abuse, as the Zilla and WarP 9" combo will kill them!


Do you think that battery is up to the task? Kind of low C rates, though I suppose at 320 volts you won't be pulling high battery amps too often.
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby The_Toecutter » Fri 05 Mar 2010, 16:53:15

I am very impressed by your Fiero. You are much further along in a much shorter amount of time than I am. You will probably get around 50 miles range @ 60 mph to 100% discharge. The Fiero is a heavy car with so-so aerodynamics. It's mid-engined layout is to die for, however. You should seriously consider a GT bodykit for drag reduction to extend the range you will have significantly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', '
')Do you think that battery is up to the task? Kind of low C rates, though I suppose at 320 volts you won't be pulling high battery amps too often.


If I go with that setup, I am intent on limiting the battery to ~250A. Even with this limitation, the Zilla could still output 1,000A to the motor, it's just that the battery will be the limiting factor in the maximum horsepower that the motor will output, and not the motor itself(which will be limited to 170V, but with that battery, will not be able to have 1,000A @ 170V).

This still means 220 lb-ft of torque starting at 0 rpm, even if the setup were to instead use a meagre 72V Trojan T105 pack(it would then just be limited to about 30 hp before the torque started to reduce as an increasing function of speed); try getting that torque with a low current AC setup ~300V. Even with a modest 80 hp peak at the motor, 0-60 mph < 8 seconds will still be possible thanks to that LiFePO4 battery being much lighter than the lead acid packs I had considered for it, keeping the final weight of the car around 2,000 lbs; I'm every bit intent on taking Corvettes off the line up to about 30 mph, but insufficient traction will probably prevent me from doing that.

Even with that horsepower limitation at the motor, the bodywork on that car for drag reduction will still allow a top speed ~130 mph with the right gearing so as not to draw more than 65 kW from the pack at that speed(The motor would be at much greater risk of overheating at that speed than anything going wrong with the battery, if the published specs are true, and in the conversions those packs are in, they seem to be. I may find some way to get better cooling to the motor so that a speed of at least 115 mph could be maintained indefinately).

The ADU1B LeMans Spitfire only needed 75 horsepower from its 4-cylinder engine to do 130 mph. This also means ~100 Wh/mile at 60 mph will be possible; Reverend Gadget has achieved this efficiency in his Spitfire conversion *without* any special attention to aerodynamics, other than throwing a GT6 body on it, although he did use tires with a Crr of around 0.006 and his conversion didn't exceed GVWR.

The reason I am seriously considering that pack over the more powerful Thunderskies? A built in BMS. I want this pack to last a very long time after things collapse here in the states.

That thing will be an awesome canyon carver when finished...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby JRP3 » Fri 05 Mar 2010, 20:08:19

I'm of the mind, as are a few others, that a BMS is not necessary if you first bottom balance the pack so the cells all hit the same low state of charge at the same time, limit charge at the high end so as not to push the cells into the steep part of the curve, and if you size the pack large enough so that you rarely approach it's maximum range. A BMS only operates at the ends of the charge/discharge curve, so avoid those and you should be good to go. If I did go with a BMS I'd use this one http://www.cleanpowerauto.com/MiniBMS.html $12 per cell plus $30 for the head board, developed by Dimitri on DIY. I see some BMS's going for $1000 or more, and I can buy a lot more cells for that money.
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby Slowpoke » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 08:24:46

It's dead, Jim.
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Re: Aptera is on its Knees

Postby ennui2 » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 12:07:33

Nice to pop back here randomly and see one of my predictions validated.

Reuters Link
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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Re: THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Postby JRP3 » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 18:47:23

You mean you went out on a limb and predicted a three wheeled freak machine would fail in the market? Bold move.
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Re: THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Postby ennui2 » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 19:06:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'Y')ou mean you went out on a limb and predicted a three wheeled freak machine would fail in the market? Bold move.


Read back in the thread. The company had many defenders. I don't have the patience to see if you were one of them, although I do know you are a fan of EVs. Let's not rewrite history.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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Re: THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Postby rangerone314 » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 19:24:45

Stupid idea anyway having a 3-wheeled vehicle. That qualifies it as a motorcycle in some places, excluding non-motorcyclists from getting it. Fools deserve to go belly-up.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Postby JRP3 » Sun 04 Dec 2011, 22:18:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'Y')ou mean you went out on a limb and predicted a three wheeled freak machine would fail in the market? Bold move.


Read back in the thread. The company had many defenders. I don't have the patience to see if you were one of them, although I do know you are a fan of EVs. Let's not rewrite history.
I only saw a few defenders, I was never one of them and also predicted it's failure. I'm just saying it was an easy call.
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Re: THE Aptera Thread (merged)

Postby ennui2 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 13:27:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'I') only saw a few defenders, I was never one of them and also predicted it's failure. I'm just saying it was an easy call.


Hindsight is 20/20. It only takes a few vehement defenders to keep a thread like this going, BTW. People are pretty stubborn when they make their mind up that they are going to evangelize for this or that. Even on the Aptera forums there are a few who are still such fanatics that they are praying for someone will come around and pick up the IP and make the vehicle so they can get one. It's interesting to study the psychology of those who keep the faith after all evidence points towards failure. It is, basically, denial, something that peak oilers should know of quite well.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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