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Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Plantagenet » Sun 27 Nov 2011, 17:46:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'T')his has probably been posted already, but if not it's an eye-opener:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

... the Department of Homeland Security had participated in an 18-city mayor conference call advising mayors on "how to suppress" Occupy protests.


I posted the same thing a couple of days ago in the "Occupy Wall Street" thread.

This is the same thing that J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI used to do....just before Hoover died the FBI was coordinating a nation-wide effort to suppress the anti-war and Black Panther movements back in the bad old LBJ-Nixon days.

Looks like the Obama administration has now empowered the Dept Homeland Security to take over the old J. Edgar Hoover/FBI role of coordinating the suppression of internal dissent on a nationwide basis.

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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Oakley » Sun 27 Nov 2011, 19:29:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'Y')eah, I'm not exactly sure who would be waring with whom in a new American civil war. People are going to get pissed more and more, I think that's a given but there isn't going to be any ethnic cleansing or purging of the bourgeoisie no matter how much the NRA corporate sponsorship would dig it.


There are a number of possibilities.

One would be the government of different States pushing to leave the existing union and form new alliances; historically it is more likely for political unions to break up into smaller units than to amalgamate into larger units; certainly the Red State blue State division already exist.

Another would be the violence based on differing mind sets. There are clearly three camps that exist today, (1)they in power (Republicans/Democrats/fascists) who want to keep the current system of plunder and control which benefits them, (2)they who want bigger government with the largesse distributed to themselves (socialist/communist/collectivists), and (3)they who want minimum government with an end to warfare and welfare state (libertarians/individualists). If you look at the violence in Missouri in the Civil War it was not just one government fighting another government; it was people carrying out extreme violence against one another. Look at Iraq and the extreme violence carried out by Shiites and Sunnis against one another. Even look at the American Revolution and the violence carried out by supporters of British Monarch against Colonists and visa versa. The US military could easily break into factions since the soldiers themselves are not just some robots for the government, but are people just like the rest of us with suffering families, values, and political views; extreme circumstances can force choices. (It is interesting that anti-war, anti-big government Ron Paul gets more contributions from active military forces than all other candidates combined, and gets more contributions from federal employees than any other single candidate.)

I am sure that on the eve of the American Revolution and the Civil War there were many who expressed sentiments similar to yours. Revolutions and civil wars to not occur instantly. Events unfold in a recognizable sequence, beginning with peaceful efforts to bring about change and end with large scale fighting. In between there is a progression with events like demonstrations, riots, efforts to prepare (such as the legislation referenced in this thread), sabotage, assassinations, small scale attacks, temporary capture of government facilities and communication facilities, and bombings. If history is a guide, it could take a decade or two for these events to unfold, and we just at the beginning with the peaceful effort of Ron Paul and a few others to substitute (restore) freedom instead of the current political arrangements that yield a distribution of wealth resembling a pre Civil War Southern plantation. Watch and wait to see what unfolds.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby AgentR11 » Sun 27 Nov 2011, 19:45:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')o you are just... inured to all this blah blah about civil rights? Kind of above the fray, eating yer popcorn as Rome burns and all that, besides you knew it was going to happen all along.


Well, I wouldn't go THAT far, if I knew what was going to happen, I could pick market winners and make a fortune. As it is, information technology makes certain things very easy; bureaucrats like easy things, thus they do them. Its hardly shocking that open text in a public forum would be tied to ID's and categorical flags attached to those ID based upon concepts expressed in that text. This is one of those things that I'd be shocked if it weren't happening.

I don't see how this infringes my civil rights. I don't care what they know, and as long as they don't care, that I don't care, its all golden. (ps, no one that supports expanded federal health care has the right to say twiddle about what the government does or does not know; they start writing checks here in the US for everyone's health care; they'll know every last detail about your life down to whether you prefer to sneeze into a paper napkin or cloth hankie.)

You could make a stronger assertion about breaking up protests being a violation of civil rights, but negotiating the conflict between a protestors use of public space and other citizens use of that same space is a subjective process, and the courts are the proper place to have such an argument. Seems to be working OK so far, ie, no one is happy, but no one is dead as a result.

As to watching Rome burn?? I think that fire's pretty much burned and gone cold; declare war and everyone go shopping. Right. This is more like watching the confused populace wander about aimlessly, picking up random pieces of charred stuff for no good reason.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Pops » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 08:50:44

I think we're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about the proposal in the OP which seems to suspend Habeas Corpus along with implementing the Posse Comitatus act - "for some persons".

If I'm overstating that tell me.

The military arresting US citizens in Poughkeepsie and "detaining" them indefinitely is the point in this thread, sorry if I got off topic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n one fell swoop, the NDAA thereby severs the requirement that detention be tied to a group’s responsibility for the September 11 attacks; overrides international law by authorizing detention of individuals who may have never committed a belligerent act; and effectively converts our conflict against those responsible for September 11 into a worldwide military operation against a breathtaking array of terrorist groups engaged in hostilities against virtually any of our allies.
But even more ominous than the NDAA’s applicability in far corners of the globe is its application at home. Section 1031(d) provides that the NDAA’s authority doesn’t apply to individuals lawfully present within the United States (including U.S. citizens) “except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.” Whereas this provision might appear to bar such detention, it in fact authorizes it, since the principal constraint on the government’s power to detain U.S. citizens is not the Constitution, but rather a 1971 Act of Congress that provides that “No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress.” Thanks to the language of section 1031, the NDAA would be just such an Act, since its text specifically authorizes detention to the extent that it is not barred by the Constitution.

http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/the-war-o ... soon-might

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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 09:38:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') think we're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about the proposal in the OP which seems to suspend Habeas Corpus along with implementing the Posse Comitatus act - "for some persons".

It seems that you are going to do something what Russians were doing in last century and Chinese are still doing.
It is normal for an empire to behave in such a way.
It is difficult to control vast territories where resources are dwindling, so some final efforts meant to preserve ailing empires are relying on sweeping powers of governments.
It will not save such a government in a long run, but it will delay inevitable for few years.
Meantime your friendly neighbour who turned out to be a petty thief may find himself to be taken out of circulation without any legal process.

Worth to think, what standards of proof are affordable to deliver by crumbling institutions of failing state?

So lets say, we cannot afford due legal process necessary to lock up looters and rapists and what is best to do in such situation?

1. Do nothing and let looting and raping to go on.

2. Detain generally known perpetrators base on anecdotal evidence and keep them in without formal charge until we have resources needed to prosecute them or even better send them to camps where they are going to be forced to do something useful.

These are a sort of choices, which every ailing society must do.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Cog » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 11:18:51

Pops

Have you actually read the proposed legislation?
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Pops » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 12:36:49

It's Section 1031 here.

The NYT

Here are a couple of seemingly knowledgeable lawyer type guys discussing it:

http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/the-war-o ... soon-might
http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/11/dete ... -the-ndaa/
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Cog » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 18:35:23

I've read section 1031 and it exempts US citizens. And it only applies to those who were involved with Al Queda, the Taliban, or those associated with those groups in carrying out terrorists acts against the United States.

So before those in the OWS get their panties in a bunch, they need to read the specifics.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby PrestonSturges » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 19:15:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'ve read section 1031 and it exempts US citizens. And it only applies to those who were involved with Al Queda, the Taliban, or those associated with those groups in carrying out terrorists acts against the United States.

So before those in the OWS get their panties in a bunch, they need to read the specifics.


I broke this up a bit because it's basically one sentence:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')...that if the acts before specified should stand, these conclusions would flow from them;
that the general government may place any act they think proper on the list of crimes and punish it themselves whether enumerated or not enumerated by the constitution as cognizable by them:

that they may transfer its cognizance to the President, or any other person, who may himself be the accuser, counsel, judge and jury, whose suspicions may be the evidence, his order the sentence, his officer the executioner, and his breast the sole record of the transaction:

that a very numerous and valuable description of the inhabitants of these States being, by this precedent, reduced, as outlaws, to the absolute dominion of one man, and the barrier of the Constitution thus swept away from us all, no ramparts now remains against the passions and the powers of a majority in Congress to protect from a like exportation, or other more grievous punishment, the minority of the same body, the legislatures, judges, governors and counsellors of the States, nor their other peaceable inhabitants, who may venture to reclaim the constitutional rights and liberties of the States and people, or who for other causes, good or bad, may be obnoxious to the views, or marked by the suspicions of the President, or be thought dangerous to his or their election, or other interests, public or personal;

that the friendless alien has indeed been selected as the safest subject of a first experiment; but the citizen will soon follow, or rather, has already followed, for already has a sedition act marked him as its prey:

that these and successive acts of the same character, unless arrested at the threshold, necessarily drive these States into revolution and blood and will furnish new calumnies against republican government, and new pretexts for those who wish it to be believed that man cannot be governed but by a rod of iron: that it would be a dangerous delusion were a confidence in the men of our choice to silence our fears for the safety of our rights: that confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism......

Thomas Jefferson, The Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby AgentR11 » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 19:33:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'ve read section 1031 and it exempts US citizens. And it only applies to those who were involved with Al Queda, the Taliban, or those associated with those groups in carrying out terrorists acts against the United States.

So before those in the OWS get their panties in a bunch, they need to read the specifics.


And when Obama gets around, in his second term, to determining and designating that the Tea Party is a group involved in carrying out terrorist acts against the United States, you will say???

This is the perfect example of a slippery slope; but the problem is, we've been sliding down it for nearly two decades. We are now long past the point of no return.

There's really no excuse to capture anyone within the US and not subject them to criminal prosecution as opposed to some odd, disappeared state of indefinite detention.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Pops » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 19:47:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'ve read section 1031
:lol:

Pardon me Cog for not feeling reassured by your reading. As it turns out, there's more to the law than understanding the words.

From my link above, not that it matters, you didn't read it the first time:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ection 1031 of the NDAA, in contrast, would vitiate the nuance in this jurisprudence. Thus, although the current language reiterates the AUMF’s authority, it goes on to authorize in addition the detention of “A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.” (emphasis added). This language may seem unobjectionable, but parse it carefully: an individual may be detained for providing “direct support” (which, in the government’s view, may be nothing more than minor financial or logistical assistance) in aid of “associated forces” that are “engaged in hostilities against . . . coalition partners.” Thus, the NDAA effectively authorizes the military detention of any individual who provides such assistance anywhere in the world to any group engaged in hostilities against any of our coalition partners, whether or not the United States is in any way involved in (or even affected by) that particular conflict.

In one fell swoop, the NDAA thereby severs the requirement that detention be tied to a group’s responsibility for the September 11 attacks; overrides international law by authorizing detention of individuals who may have never committed a belligerent act; and effectively converts our conflict against those responsible for September 11 into a worldwide military operation against a breathtaking array of terrorist groups engaged in hostilities against virtually any of our allies.


and as to US citizens:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut even more ominous than the NDAA’s applicability in far corners of the globe is its application at home. Section 1031(d) provides that the NDAA’s authority doesn’t apply to individuals lawfully present within the United States (including U.S. citizens) “except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.” Whereas this provision might appear to bar such detention, it in fact authorizes it, since the principal constraint on the government’s power to detain U.S. citizens is not the Constitution, but rather a 1971 Act of Congress that provides that “No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress.” Thanks to the language of section 1031, the NDAA would be just such an Act, since its text specifically authorizes detention to the extent that it is not barred by the Constitution.


For those who are concerned about liberty as more than a copy-point send an email at the ACLU link above.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby PrestonSturges » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 19:48:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'ve read section 1031 and it exempts US citizens. And it only applies to those who were involved with Al Queda, the Taliban, or those associated with those groups in carrying out terrorists acts against the United States.
So before those in the OWS get their panties in a bunch, they need to read the specifics.

And when Obama gets around, in his second term, to determining and designating that the Tea Party is a group involved in carrying out terrorist acts against the United States, you will say??
Last week the Tea Party types were cheering for the banks, the pepper spray, and the truncheon. Are we back to warning about "tyranny" and "statism?" That didn't take long.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby PrestonSturges » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 19:56:53

Since 1927, conservative have warned about how they and the Christians are about to be massacred and enslaved by the liberals, because anyone who is a liberal is also a Stalinist or something. And since then, right wing regimes have put millions and milllions of people into mass graves to "save" their countries from the scourges of birth control, poetry, pacifism, and the free press.

Even Hayek said that conservatives are far more likely to ratchet down civil liberties since every historical change is perceived as a conspiracy and existential threat in the conservative mind.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby AgentR11 » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 20:02:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'L')ast week the Tea Party types were cheering for the banks, the pepper spray, and the truncheon. Are we back to warning about "tyranny" and "statism?" That didn't take long.


I'm not in charge of what the Tea Party says or does not say; I do tend to cheer for the banks, but I also oppose heavy handed police tactics. Cog mentions the "protections" included in this new legislation; and I felt it relevant to illustrate that the protections listed are of no consequence to anyone who wishes to wield suppressive power against any particular group of Americans.

But to "warning"??? No. This is acknowledgement and acceptance. Tyranny and statism, are now the fundamental nature of America; they just have manifested themselves in a more covert manner than in the past.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Cloud9 » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 20:33:17

I'm a Tea Party type and I loath banks. Karl Dinninger is a Tea Party type and he supports the protestors. Try not to put us all in the same bag.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby bromius » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 20:39:18

For what its worth, I emailed the two senators in my state opposing those sections of the NDAA. I also wrote opposing the SOPA and PIPA laws currently being considered, since I like my first amendment rights and dislike censorship.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby Pops » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 21:02:33

Thanks Bro!
I'll look into those too.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby rangerone314 » Tue 29 Nov 2011, 01:04:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')hread slain by Godwin's law before it even makes the second page.

Oh wait, this is us; carry on!

Is there a Godwin's law for Pol Pot or Mussolini, because those are two possibilities also.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby AdTheNad » Tue 29 Nov 2011, 06:12:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Is there a Godwin's law for Pol Pot or Mussolini, because those are two possibilities also.

I don't know, but I do think people are too quick to invoke Godwin's law these days. Everyone knows the saying, "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it". Well it's hard to learn from history when every time you liken some of the things that are happening in various countires to what happened in Nazi Germany it becomes a conversation killer.
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Re: Indefinite Military Detention in Your Town

Postby rangerone314 » Tue 29 Nov 2011, 07:11:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Is there a Godwin's law for Pol Pot or Mussolini, because those are two possibilities also.

I don't know, but I do think people are too quick to invoke Godwin's law these days. Everyone knows the saying, "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it". Well it's hard to learn from history when every time you liken some of the things that are happening in various countires to what happened in Nazi Germany it becomes a conversation killer.

I'd like to email those useless pieces of sh*t Carl Levin and John McCain my suggestion for a new US flag to go along with their legislation: a flag with swasticas instead of stars.

Seriously, fighting the Nazis was a waste of time, lives & money if we are just going to go down the same road as them. What next, the Enabling Acts?

John McCain doesn't like banks, he likes Savings and Loans. I don't buy his "conversion" away from corruption.
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