[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')I don't think going overseas is any kind of solution for the vast majority of American students. What we need is an overhaul of the student loan program, and more fundamentally, our higher education system.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')They cant put their lives on hold counting on some reform happening in the short term.

[evilgenius]

I think this argument, not unlike many other arguments on the public's mind these days, has its roots in a forgotten part of our collective history. Namely, its roots lie in the get rich mania fostered by the Reagan years and kept going in one form or another since. From about the time of Robin Leach's 'Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous' America in particular began to change. The people began to replace long cherished life goals and ambitions with statements like, 'I want to be rich when I grow up.' Over a period of time the popular culture began to fill with all of the pointers to a more opulent way of life, as a way of conveying expectations and regularizing cultural motifs. Super models became an obsession. Nobody cared that Donald Trump was a notorious bankrupt, only that he lived in a penthouse and had shiny gold appointments. Inexorably Regis Philbin led us to want to be millionaires. No conspiracy did this to us. We did this to us.

Basically, the cost of school goes up in relation to the amount of money available for borrowing in terms of student loans. When the government increases that amount the schools follow suit with tuition increases. The schools always blame the increases on something else. Students who just 'want to be rich' either don't care or are not likely to pay attention to the fact that they have alternatives. To borrow to the hilt with no other thought on your mind other than how rich you were going to get and then to complain when it doesn't work out is borderline egregious. To borrow to the hilt paying for some school you don't really need to be in, but you are there to chase the genie of your education will saddle you with a lot of debt you didn't need to take on. Hopefully you will find a way to deal with it. Above all, please don't repeat the same error of stumbling in and not bothering to examine the full picture with the rest of the decisions(the many) that you still have left to make in life. Unfortunately, the future is set to be full of assorted collections of whiners. You really do not have to be amongst them.

[DomusAlbion]

Evilgenius - $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o conspiracy did this to us. We did this to us.

[Lumpy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DomusAlbion', 'E')vilgenius - $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o conspiracy did this to us. We did this to us.

[Duende]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re those that signed these loans and who went into such debt fools? Absolutely!

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Duende', '
')I'm a little embarrassed to remind you all that gaining a decent-paying entry-level job in the formal economy is completely and utterly dependent upon having a college degree, if not a Masters.

[DomusAlbion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Duende', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re those that signed these loans and who went into such debt fools? Absolutely!

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Duende', 'T')he conundrum that kids - and I stress that term to remind you who we're talking about here - kids today are faced with is:
do I ante up for the education to duke it out with thousands of others also armed with degrees for the few jobs there are?

[Duende]

Plantagenet wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')killed tradesmen like plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists etc. can make a very good living without a college degree.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Duende', 'I')t doesn't help either that many of the skills that will likely become useful in a powered-down scenario just don't pay all that well today; at least not compared to more-specialized, less sustainability-oriented jobs.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'T')he "conservative" answer to social inequality and educational hyperinflation seems to be "I'm rich, what's your problem?" It's no wonder so many young people find this to be a morally bankrupt position.

[vision-master]

Some of the dumbest ppl I've ever met were the college educated ones.

and yes, I worked 6 years as a school janitor, some of the old timers were very smart ppl, they would just laugh at the academics.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')
Why does a high school diploma mean so little?

Why do lower income, modestly intelligent kids believe they need a 4 yr college degree?

Other advanced countries have no hesitancy about pulling Bob with good hands and 100 IQ, and telling him, "hey, the academics in 11th and 12th grade will crush you like a bug, but we also have trade skill programs A,B & C that your tests tell us you will do well in."

[vision-master]

Union Pipefitters in California make $39.63 hr, not bad eh.

How many of you computer jockies make $40 hr + bennies.

[Duende]

AgentR11 wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '9')5%+ high school graduation rate is not a success, its an enormous failure. I don't know how to fix this; we are so far in to the entitlement mentality, everyone thinks they deserve everything.

[AgentR11]

Some low performing district numbers are only low performing because they are encouraged to keep kids on the rolls, even if they are no-show or not-interested. I'm basically talking there about the kids who are staying in, attending, and attempting the work. They pass, more or less, and get a piece of paper that says "diploma" on it.

But the low number vs all enroll-able is also quite revealing. Because the diploma isn't worth anything, and isn't relevant to any career option they might pursue, why bother even showing up? If 15-18 yr olds were getting training that moved them along the way to being a certified mechanic, or other trades license, wouldn't they be more willing to stay in school?

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')ou've put your finger on one of the problems, R11. Rich but dumb white kids will always be supported by their parents who believe that little Billy with the report card full of "D"s will ultimately bloom, if only he can be passed through enough classes.

[evilgenius]

The dilemma isn't any more answered when you take a look at what goes on in college as opposed to what goes on trying to get placed there. I'm in my last semester after going back to school as an older person. For the past several years I've watched too many people not put in the time and energy necessary to perform better. I've heard too many people talk about how, "C's pass". I've heard too many stories about people's debts. I have reasons to dislike the school itself, for its failure to form a program that demands more and better from its students. The culture of just enough is, well, enough, is everywhere.

I feel that if students went to school and actually focused it wouldn't matter where they went to school. What you can learn, if you pour yourself into it, is the same or better at most community colleges or state schools. Yes, when the slacking becomes endemic the programs themselves do become worse, but not so much so that you can't still see what to do with yourself if you decide to focus. The real problem is that most people take their behavior cues from their peers. They listen to the slackers over the achievers. They believe they need the stamp rather than the mastery. They do not think about their future selves, it's always easier to blame a conspiracy or a society. They too easily forget they actively participated in making the effect of that conspiracy or that society happen in their own lives. I know, I've watched it happen too many times by now and I've done it to myself to some degree.