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Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grain

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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby Cog » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 00:36:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'A')fter joining one of my first jobs I had, when i was 14 years old, I discovered was a "union" operation. I stated my preference not to join the union, and received a verbal thrashing from the adult employees who demanded I pay their union dues. That was my first and last experience with unions. I never figured out why adults were doing a job 14 year-olds could do.


Without a union, your wage would have been lower. Would you have rather made a lower wage and the owner make more profit? Do you value your labor so little?


Maybe he values his freedom to choose more than money. I doubt you would understand the concept Strings.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 00:38:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'M')aybe he values his freedom to choose more than money. I doubt you would understand the concept Strings.


How can a union abuse you? The union gets you higher wages, good benefits, bargains for workplace safety, steps in when management gets out of hand.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby Cog » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 00:40:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'M')aybe he values his freedom to choose more than money. I doubt you would understand the concept Strings.


How can a union abuse you? The union gets you higher wages, good benefits, bargains for workplace safety, steps in when management gets out of hand.


Then he should be allowed to make this choice and not be coerced into it. Right to Work means exactly what it says. If unions can make the case, they can do all these great things, then they should state it and let the individual decide what is best for him. You don't like that choice do you Strings?

I might also point out that unions also are responsible for the loss of jobs when their demands exceed what employers can pay. I've seen that happen many times in my state.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 02:41:58

There is a tight relationship between the fall-off in union membership and the growing disparity between the wealthy and the workers in America.

And it's fueled and made worse by our open-borders policy which allows several million people (mostly adult, unskilled laborers) to immigrate annually.

Which begs the question: with tens of millions of Americans and LPRs unemployed, why would our nation continue to import millions of (mostly) unskilled workers?
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 03:48:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'W')hich begs the question: with tens of millions of Americans and LPRs unemployed, why would our nation continue to import millions of (mostly) unskilled workers?

Because the asylum is run by those who should be the inmates.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 03:51:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'m hoping that that the unions will actually engage in a lot of this sort of violence before the 2012 elections. Every time they do, the margin of victory for the conservatives and tea party members gets larger. :lol:

Stupid unions; if they are going to be violent, they ought to do it at the owner's residence, not the port, LOL.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 03:56:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'A')fter joining one of my first jobs I had, when i was 14 years old, I discovered was a "union" operation. I stated my preference not to join the union, and received a verbal thrashing from the adult employees who demanded I pay their union dues. That was my first and last experience with unions. I never figured out why adults were doing a job 14 year-olds could do.


Without a union, your wage would have been lower. Would you have rather made a lower wage and the owner make more profit? Do you value your labor so little?

Obama and the Dems should have passed card check, as they promised. Anyone getting a job in any of the 50 states -- yes you too Texas -- should get a form when first hired asking if they want a union. Every six months, there should be a vote on a union in every workplace in America.

It's time for the lower 80% to stand up for themselves -- nobody else will.


But with a union the things we purchase will be much more expensive and of lesser quality.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 07:06:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', 'B')ut with a union the things we purchase will be much more expensive and of lesser quality.


If you don't like what they are selling, who don't you make it yourself?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'A')fter joining one of my first jobs I had, when i was 14 years old, I discovered was a "union" operation. I stated my preference not to join the union, and received a verbal thrashing from the adult employees who demanded I pay their union dues. That was my first and last experience with unions. I never figured out why adults were doing a job 14 year-olds could do.


Because that's the best the economy has to offer to them. Believe me. If there were better jobs they would have taken them. And unlike a 14 year old, these people have families to feed. They need to keep risking their jobs and fighting for their wages(not to keep the wages growing, just to keep them where they are today).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I') have no reason to shoot them as long as they stay off my property and otherwise do not threaten me. I don't go to their houses and break in and tell them I have the right to be there. They can show me the same consideration as a business owner.


Maybe if you take the time to grace them with your presence every now and then and pay attention to their grievance once in a while, there will be no reason for them to turn violent. If you take away their livelihood they have nothing to lose. There is nothing more dangerous than people who have nothing to lose( and by the way their numbers are growing). And those people who believe they are doing the world a favor by running a business also need to get their heads examined.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'m hoping that that the unions will actually engage in a lot of this sort of violence before the 2012 elections. Every time they do, the margin of victory for the conservatives and tea party members gets larger. :lol:


This I can agree with. Not because the ordinary people hate the revolt from unions. They are all set to do the same thing themselves. The hatred against the global elite is now palpable. But the democratic party in USA are themselves to blame for their current predicament. The common man believed that at least the democrats will protect him from the sharks at wall street(don't bother hoping the republicans will do anything to startle the "job creators"). But they have done no such thing in the past 2 years.
If the democrats are serious about wining again they'll have to put a few of these bankers behind the bars.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 08:34:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'M')aybe if you take the time to grace them with your presence every now and then and pay attention to their grievance once in a while, there will be no reason for them to turn violent. If you take away their livelihood they have nothing to lose. There is nothing more dangerous than people who have nothing to lose( and by the way their numbers are growing). And those people who believe they are doing the world a favor by running a business also need to get their heads examined.


You're awesome Praj, best new forum member ever. +1

Cog isn't making the anti-union case very well. To be fair and balanced, I can't help doing devil's advocate and stepping in for him..

1) Problem with unions is that it hurts efficiency. It gets to be too hard to fire someone even when they really need to be fired. You end up with inferior product / customer service.

2) In the case of gov unions, the pay and benefits can get to be too much. There are a few outrageous things, like the Post Office paying people a half million to relocate etc.

3) In the context of globalism, American unions can't compete. I wonder though how Germany and France manage to do it? It must be that they have measured protectionist and globalist polices whereas we are are all globalist.

Ultimately though, unions are very weak and almost dead. In much of the South they're nonexistent -- these are all Right to Work states. I've personally never been in a union. I've never known anyone who was. Every company I've ever worked for makes it clear at the get go how anti-union they are. An employee can be fired in my state for talking about a union. This is because under "right to work" you can be terminated "with or without cause." So if they want to fire you for a federally illegal reason, they just put it down to "no cause."

Because we have no unions, no workers standing up for themselves, Florida has notoriously low wages and sh*tty jobs. Most vacation time I've ever had was a company that had a standard package nationwide -- so I got the benefit of what Northern unions have fought for. In general if you're not an owner in Florida, you're crap.

The gov jobs have always sucked on wages down here, but at least they had great healthcare and a good pension. That's all over now. The state decided to bring gov worker benefits "in line with the private sector." Bottom line, without a lot of strong unions there's nobody to stand up for the working man. Democrats won't do it. The rich sure as hell won't, this is why unions formed a hundred and thirty odd years ago. The People must band together, because The Man doesn't give a damn.

I don't want to see unions go too far, like some of the postal worker bennies, but if only we could figure out how the Germans and French do it then that would be a good balance. The key is a healthy medium, right now we're too far on the pro-capital side and it's not good for society.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 09:51:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '1')) Problem with unions is that it hurts efficiency. It gets to be too hard to fire someone even when they really need to be fired. You end up with inferior product / customer service.


How much efficiency do you want? If you ask an engineer he will tell you that efficiency means more output for less effort. And that's why we have technology. But if you ask an economist or their right wing cheerleaders, efficiency means more output and more effort for less pay.
Anybody can look at the numbers and tell you the productivity of the american workers has been rising for the past 30 years. But economists and right wingers compare their wages to the chinese slave wages and call them inefficient.
I understand there would be a few cases where the worker is completely useless. But such workers would be a small percentage of the overall work force. It doesn't explain why the wages of all american workers has remained stagnant for 30 years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')2) In the case of gov unions, the pay and benefits can get to be too much. There are a few outrageous things, like the Post Office paying people a half million to relocate etc.


The public sector can go out of hand. No doubt. I read about this post office thing and it seems that they bought 14 $1 million homes. I bet they all went to the top officials at the post office.
The government has corrupt employees. Corruption is not a 21st century invention. But why claim that corruption is just a government phenomenon. Look at the wall street executives. And this post office scam is nothing compared to Enron.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '3')) In the context of globalism, American unions can't compete. I wonder though how Germany and France manage to do it? It must be that they have measured protectionist and globalist polices whereas we are are all globalist.


It's largely because of the free trade ideologues. There is no such thing as free trade. There is only trade. The Germans had the common sense to know what kind of trade is good for them and what kind of trade will hurt their own industries. So their industries are doing relatively well.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 14:25:57

In an ideal world (for right wingers), robots would do all work for the handful of people at the top, and the masses could be left to starve, and be killed by UAVs if they get uppity about starving to death.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 16:17:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', 'B')ut with a union the things we purchase will be much more expensive and of lesser quality.


If you don't like what they are selling, why don't you make it yourself?



I think that's the reason so many people choose superior brands and a lot of the unions companies have been losing out on business. Unions have a spectrum from being fair and efficient at one end, and at the other, demanding inefficiency button pushers demanding more than they deserve yet they wield enough power to destroy an industry. Where the unions are at now is the latter end of the spectrum. It's just not realistic. People literary do make things themselves because of the superior price and quality.

I don't have a simple answer for how to solve this. At first glance, unions seem great for the people, just like democracy and fractional reserve banking, it's when it gets out of hand. I don't know the fix for this, it just happens due to greed I suppose.
Last edited by ColossalContrarian on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 16:41:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Union members storm port, hold guards hostage, dump grai

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 11 Sep 2011, 16:22:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'H')ow much efficiency do you want? If you ask an engineer he will tell you that efficiency means more output for less effort. And that's why we have technology. But if you ask an economist or their right wing cheerleaders, efficiency means more output and more effort for less pay. ... I understand there would be a few cases where the worker is completely useless. But such workers would be a small percentage of the overall work force.


This is like arguing with myself, you and me are on the same side haha.

This is just anecdotal experience, we'll just have to disagree, but I have to admit that generally consumers get a better product / service from non-unionized workers. The problem is that consumers are also workers.. so what goes around comes around. The private sector can get so bad that quality falls off because they're treating their employees so poorly.

Case in point, Walmart. Going through a checkout line is like being rung up by a galley slave. I feel bad for them, yet infuriated by the slowness, the i-don't-give-a-damn, and inefficiency. It's not because they're unionized, but the opposite -- paid minimum wage, maybe on foods stamps, crap benefits, treated like crap.

This gets complicated with no black and white easy answers, I can see both sides of the issue but on the whole though it's gotten very bad for working people in the US. We need more unions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') read about this post office thing and it seems that they bought 14 $1 million homes. I bet they all went to the top officials at the post office.


That sounds outrageous but I never read the details on it. Were these homes for executives? While free houses are distasteful, the post office is private and a gargantuan enterprise. Yet I doubt they have the enormous executive pay of FedEx / UPS / every other big corp. To be fair you'd have to look at the totality, how much are the executives compensated -- zero stock options for one thing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's largely because of the free trade ideologues. There is no such thing as free trade. There is only trade. The Germans had the common sense to know what kind of trade is good for them and what kind of trade will hurt their own industries. So their industries are doing relatively well.


Well said, I agree.
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