[Timo]

Those nations that keep pace with the transition will fare better than those that don't. I agree that the transition will be long and very costly, and there will undoubtedly be times where we, as consumers, face declines in our current comfort levels. That said, the satus quo won't be around for much longer. Who ever starts altering their infrastructure now will be light years ahead of the rest of the planet, and will prosper economically much more than those who drag their feet.

I'll only offer this as my own opinion, and hope that it doesn't spiral downhill like so many other posts here at PO. When you look at the historical formations and practices of gevernments around the world, at least the last several hundred years worth, the US is pretty much the standard for not having evolved into its current state directly from a monarchy or some other totalitarian system. (I know US history well enough to know that we faught the battle of independence from a monarchy, but it was very remote and distant at the time.) Europe and Asia, culturally, have more recent experiences with top-down models of governence. Here in the US, our system was created as the opposite, bottom-up. This type of structure, IMO, will be the achilles heel of American society. There are simply too many people crying out different ideologies, all fighting for control, to convert our system to a top-down model that rightly or wrongly is deemed more efficient in serving everyone's needs. This chaos requisitely prevents any action being taken to collectively address the most serve and catostrophic needs of society. In other cultures, even if they are presently democracies, there is an underlying MO of top-down decision making, and the people usually accept the priorities set by the government and collectively work for the common good. Europe and China will lead the way into the future. Americans are too petty and self-centered to address the collective good.

[vision-master]

New Report shows Hydrogen Vehicles will change drive?

[Graeme]

More Than 5,200 Hydrogen Fueling Stations to Be Operational by 2020, According to Pike Researc

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ydrogen is widely used for its chemical properties in a range of industrial applications. Fuel cells that use direct hydrogen are opening up a new business opportunity for hydrogen suppliers – one with potentially high demand if some key markets take off. The key direct hydrogen fuel cell applications that are currently seeing traction are light duty vehicles, forklifts, buses, stationary power, and scooters. These fuel cell market present different infrastructure buildout pathways, with varying opportunities and challenges.

According to a new report from Pike Research, as a result of this infrastructure investment, more than 5,200 hydrogen fueling stations for cars, buses and forklifts will be operational worldwide by 2020, up from just 200 stations in 2010. The cleantech market intelligence firm forecasts that, by the end of that period, annual investment in hydrogen stations will reach $1.6 billion, with a cumulative 10-year investment totaling $8.4 billion. The increased utilization of hydrogen as a fuel will drive annual demand from approximately 775,000 kilograms (kg) in 2010 to 418 million kg by 2020.

“There is no one clear business model for the hydrogen infrastructure market at present,” says senior analyst Lisa Jerram.“Currently, the major players in hydrogen fueling are large multinationals: the industrial gas companies, and the energy and gas companies, both those that operate retail gas stations and those that provide fuels for the grid. These companies tend to favor large-scale hydrogen infrastructure options.”

[Graeme]

Will Germany Become First Nation with a Hydrogen Economy?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')ermany will become the first country completely accessible to fuel cell vehicles in 2015, when carmaker Daimler and the Linde technology group will build 20 new hydrogen filling stations. The result will quadruple the number of public stations available and make it possible for a fuel cell vehicle to reach any location in the country.

Daimler's plans to start mass-producing fuel cell vehicles next year were severely limited by the lack of public hydrogen filling stations in Germany. The carmaker realized that if its vision of battery-powered electric vehicles gaining mass appeal in tandem with fuel cell electrics was to come true, it needed to so something about the lack of hydrogen infrastructure.

Installation of the hydrogen refueling pumps will begin next year at existing gas stations currently operated by various oil companies. Daimler and Linde said their investment would be "in the tens of millions of euros," declining to be more specific. They said they were open to teaming up with other potential partners in the fuel, energy and automotive industry.

[vision-master]

What's next, those gas bags........

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')his will benefit the top one percent twenty five years from now. You simply cannot replace 100 years of infrastructure with a scientific study.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'U')nless we can develop economical hydrogen vehicles within next 10 years, this supposed technology that will save our happy motoring ways is a myth.

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'U')nless we can develop economical hydrogen vehicles within next 10 years, this supposed technology that will save our happy motoring ways is a myth.

[efarmer]

I already have been driving hydrogen powered vehicles for 38 years.
I put hydrogen mixed with carbon in a tank by buying a substance called
gasoline. I burn the hydrogen in combustion cylinders and shoot carbon dioxide
out of my tailpipe. Sometimes I eat burritos and shoot methane out of my tailpipe
as well, but this energy is lost and just dissipates into the atmosphere.

When the hydrogen is in it's atomic pure form, it is a small atom and sneaks out
of tanks and is hard to store enough to have long range vehicles without driving
around in a bomb posing as a vehicle.

[Expatriot]

What is with this Graeme dude?
Seriously?
The guy has been posting cornucopian fantasies for as long as I've known about PO.com.

Here's a 6 year old thread he started on hydrogen:
post140920.html?hilit=hydrogen#p140920

In part:
"Engineers who have reviewed the technology say that this system is capable of producing energy at a price competitive with the current fossil fuel kWh cost of energy. "

6 years later and where are they now?

I really would love to know what drives this dude to post all this spam. Hydrogen vehicles will not populate the roadways - ever.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', '
')Did you hear that guys? Toyota has an ENERGY ROAD MAP! We're saved! 100 bucks says they had the Underpants Gnomes from south park draw it up for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBiSI6OdqvA

Hydrogen is viable as an energy storage medium for rich peoples toys, but it is not going to be powering any sort mass motoring society any time soon without a significant amount of spare electrical capacity. This may be possible on a certain scale, but its going to mean motoring will be a whole lot less democratic and societys lower classes will not have as much access to energy.

[peeker01]

Nice rant OS! I especially like the Prius plug-in with it's 12 mile range. Who needs a "Map" when
you can't get out of town?

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peeker01', 'N')ice rant OS! I especially like the Prius plug-in with it's 12 mile range. Who needs a "Map" when
you can't get out of town?

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', '
')Did you hear that guys? Toyota has an ENERGY ROAD MAP! We're saved! 100 bucks says they had the Underpants Gnomes from south park draw it up for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBiSI6OdqvA

Hydrogen is viable as an energy storage medium for rich peoples toys, but it is not going to be powering any sort mass motoring society any time soon without a significant amount of spare electrical capacity. This may be possible on a certain scale, but its going to mean motoring will be a whole lot less democratic and societys lower classes will not have as much access to energy.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', '
')As for you extrapolating my entire value system from a very few sentences where all I said was that a low EREOI transport system, based on large privately owned vehicles is going to be inherrently undemocratic, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do that. I dohope beating the S#it out of all those straw men was good for your self esteem though.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', '
')Look, you're right: Toyota has the right to manufacture whatever kind of vehicles they want, and consumers have the right to buy them, but that doesn't make them viable as mass transportation in the absence of infrastructure to support them. (the proverbial "?" in the underpants gnomes 3 step plan). I have reviewed the case for and against hydrogen and other alternative "fuels" and their potential to supplant gasoline and diesel in a post cheap oil world, and in my opinion the evidence weighs heavily against them. All the shrill screaming to the contrary is not going to change that opinion.

[Graeme]

Mercedes-Benz F125 Concept Bridges Hybrid and Hydrogen

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Mercedes-Benz F125 concept unveiled here this week is one of those vehicles that give auto salons a reason for being.

It is a dream car. And dreaming of a gilded future for automobiles, and those who drive them, is what these shows are about.

According to Mercedes, the F125 suggests what an automobile might look like in the year 2025, and what might propel it.


But Mercedes-Benz is willing, perhaps even eager, to go out on a limb here, claiming vehicles should look even more sleek, sensuous and desirable, like the F125, no matter what government safety, emissions and fuel economy regulations may be thrown their way.

Such vehicles, Mercedes posits, will be capable of ranging 1,000 kilometers (621 miles) or more between fill-ups of hydrogen, which would be pumped through fuel cells to produce the energy that would turn electric drive motors at each wheel. This would be supplemented by a plug-in hybrid system, with lightweight lithium-sulfur batteries capable of giving the F125 50 km (31 miles) of purely electric range. Semiautonomous telematics systems would help take over some of the driving duties from humans: changing lanes, passing other cars and crawling unassisted through heavy traffic.

The F125 would be constructed of materials so light — carbon fiber, aluminum, advanced plastics and rare-earth elements — that it might seem able to gracefully spread its wings and fly away.

[Graeme]

New Hydrogen Storage Method Could Replace Petroleum with Little Fuss

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ydrogen really could be the energy of the future. It is renewable, abundant, and 100% environmentally friendly. The obstacles restricting its global use are the difficulties of collecting it (pure hydrogen doesn’t occur naturally) and storing it in the quantities necessary for producing significant energy levels. Scientists at the University of Oregon have recently developed a way of storing hydrogen in a liquid form that is stable in both air and moisture, and workable at room temperature. It could minimise the current obstacles to storage and transportation, enabling an eventual transition to a hydrogen based energy infrastructure.


The compound, BN-methylcyclopentane, remains as a liquid and can be “charged” by introducing hydrogen atoms. Iron chloride is then used as a catalyst to release the hydrogen in a clean, fast and controllable manner.

The research was funded by the US Department of Energy in the push to discover a viable carrier for hydrogen fuel by 2017. Many believe that this new approach could prove more useful than other techniques currently studied because it is liquid, rather than the solid metal hydrides, absorbent materials and ammonia borane upon which most efforts currently focus. A liquid based form of storage would ease a transition from petroleum to hydrogen as existing templates and systems would require little modification.

As Liu said, "The availability of a liquid-phase hydrogen storage material could represent a practical hydrogen storage option for mobile and carrier applications that takes advantage of the currently prevalent liquid-based fuel infrastructure."

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]New Hydrogen Storage Method Could Replace Petroleum with Little Fuss

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ydrogen really could be the energy of the future. It is renewable, abundant, and 100% environmentally friendly. The obstacles restricting its global use are the difficulties of collecting it (pure hydrogen doesn’t occur naturally) and storing it in the quantities necessary for producing significant energy levels. Scientists at the University of Oregon have recently developed a way of storing hydrogen in a liquid form that is stable in both air and moisture, and workable at room temperature. It could minimise the current obstacles to storage and transportation, enabling an eventual transition to a hydrogen based energy infrastructure.


The compound, BN-methylcyclopentane, remains as a liquid and can be “charged” by introducing hydrogen atoms. Iron chloride is then used as a catalyst to release the hydrogen in a clean, fast and controllable manner.

The research was funded by the US Department of Energy in the push to discover a viable carrier for hydrogen fuel by 2017. Many believe that this new approach could prove more useful than other techniques currently studied because it is liquid, rather than the solid metal hydrides, absorbent materials and ammonia borane upon which most efforts currently focus. A liquid based form of storage would ease a transition from petroleum to hydrogen as existing templates and systems would require little modification.

As Liu said, "The availability of a liquid-phase hydrogen storage material could represent a practical hydrogen storage option for mobile and carrier applications that takes advantage of the currently prevalent liquid-based fuel infrastructure."