[Timo]

http://www.plugincars.com/electric-car-next-year-le-mans-125489.html

"A far more complicated issue is energy storage. Internal combustion cars refill in less than one minute, and recharging batteries was totally out of the question in such a short time. Every minute spent at the pit is lost time. Swappable batteries were more of a solution, but there was still an issue with energy density and weight. Each lap at Le Mans is done at more than 145 mph, with some time at top speed in the Hunaudières straight. Driving at that kind of speed requires a huge lot of energy, and it would not be smart to carry on board a huge battery when most cars at Le Mans weigh less than one ton. Nobody wants the electric car to be left behind all the gas cars, so Green GT ditched the battery idea and went for a fuel cell instead. The small company designed its own 400-kW fuel cells system. With hydrogen being so light, the quantity of energy stored aboard is equivalent to 264 kWh. A battery this size with the best lithium-ion cells would weigh more than two tons."

Big advances usually start with very small steps. I'll be very interested in seeing how this machine works out.

Oh! Hyundai is releasing a new production fuel cell vehicle next year.

(Sing along if you'd like.) Oh the times, they are a changin'!

[Graeme]

Hydrogen may finally have its day, thanks to Technion researchers

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n order to produce hydrogen, you need to split water into its components, oxygen and hydrogen. In commercial hydrogen production, that work is done at hydrogen production plants powered by fossil fuels, with the hydrogen transported to where it can be used — itself a major headache, because you have to build special, expensive pipes to resist hydrogen’s corrosive properties. The Technion-developed solution avoids both those issues by utilizing the process of photoelectrolysis, using solar power to generate power to divide water molecules. Using photoelectrolysis, the Technion team’s approach solves both the storage and the electricity generation problem in hydrogen production, said Rothschild. “Our approach is the first of its kind. We have found a way to trap light in ultrathin films of iron oxide that are 5,000 thinner than an office paper. This enables achieving high solar energy conversion efficiency and low materials and production costs.”

[Beery1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Beery1', '
')The fact is, the latest invention that will actually be useful for the next century is probably the bicycle.

[lper100km]

Timo: I don’t think that any one is disputing that fuel cells can be applied to autos. It’s already been done for demonstration vehicles like transit buses and road transport. Daimler and Ballard were in partnership for many years, though I think that has now dissolved. But IMO this is the equivalent of a laboratory trial. Like Tesla with it’s batteries, Hyundai might produce a few commercially. But eventually, the fact of the high cost and huge energy consumption required to produce and distribute hydrogen will ensure that hydrogen can never be a viable fuel source for every day use. This is what you are expecting, no? That hydrogen will replace gasoline? Get over it.

That fact that researchers are finding innovative ways to strip hydrogen from other atoms does not change the situation. Whatever method is used, they all have to overcome the energy needed to strip hydrogen atoms at the atomic level. There is no way round this. There is no magic multiplier that allows for the creation of more energy than was expended. Rather it is the other way round – that less energy is always created for a given energy expenditure, and for energy conversion into useful ‘work’, there are also inefficiencies. Hence the doomsday spiral down if we become dependent upon manufactured ‘fuels’.

Solar powered electrolysis may produce a few bubbles of hydrogen and might do so at high efficiency. Solar is neither energy intensive or reliable. Don’t forget that to use this as a fuel, hydrogen has to be compressed and transported – all more energy intensive activities. But to produce hydrogen on a scale big enough to power even a small percentage of the auto fleet would be a mind blowing energy intensive task. It’s the scalability that ruins everything.

You can focus on the desirability of the application all you want, but it is the upstream problems that will ensure that the hydrogen economy does not happen. Hydrogen is a niche market within the FF economy right now and will die with the demise of FFs.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Beery1', ' ')In a post-fossil fuel world, there is no electric grid because there is no coal, oil or gas to fuel it.

[lper100km]

Plant: Hydro power generates approx 5% of the USA grid consumption. Tidal, wind, solar, geothermal are virtually non contributory.

Other countries are more fortunate with hydro in relative terms. Norway for instance is almost 100% and Brazil is 85%. Overall, world wide hydro generation amounts to around 16% of the total power generated.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', 'P')lant: Hydro power generates approx 5% of the USA grid consumption. Tidal, wind, solar, geothermal are virtually non contributory.

Other countries are more fortunate with hydro in relative terms. Norway for instance is almost 100% and Brazil is 85%. Overall, world wide hydro generation amounts to around 16% of the total power generated.

[Beery1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he claim that there will be no electric grid when fossil fuels run out is unduly pessimistic.

[lper100km]

Plant: You had no point to make, so please don’t pretend that I support one.

I have to presume that you have adopted a permanent style of wittingly trying to subvert facts and figures, undermine people who disagree with you - which seems to be most – twist statements to suit your purpose and ignore others points of view.

If you cannot connect the dots about the almost complete lack of power generation capacity in the USA without FF to do the heavy lifting you are being deliberately naïve or have no understanding of cause and effect whatsoever.

[Plantagenet]

Beery....you are one of my favorite posters as well. I always get a laugh out of checking out your posts----its like the world seen through the eyes of "Chicken Little" .


The electrical grid won't exist! The electrical grid won't exist!

You latest claim that there won't be any electricity after fossil fuels run out is a classic. I never dreamed someone might exist who doesn't know about hydroelectric dams, wind power, solar power, geothermal energy, nuclear power and other kinds of alternative energy ---Thanks for the laugh!

[Plantagenet]

Gosh....who else believes only FF are used to power the grid?

[Plantagenet]

Beery doesn't know about hydro dams, wind farms, solar farms, etc. etc..

Lper doesn't admit that hydro dams and nukes play a big role in the US power grid.

What is going on here?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', '
')If you cannot connect the dots about the almost complete lack of power generation capacity in the USA without FF to do the heavy lifting you are being deliberately naïve or have no understanding of cause and effect whatsoever.

[lper100km]

So now you introduce another element into the discussion where there was none before. Did I or Beery for that matter mention any time frame? No. It suddenly suits your purpose to introduce it to try to reduce the impact of what we said. ie, when FF becomes depleted, the electrical power production of the USA becomes dramatically insufficient. A straightforward concept. Doesn’t matter if it’s five years, fifty or a hundred years from now. Same result. Nuclear is dependent on FF to keep it’s auxiliary and back up systems running, as Fukushima has already demonstrated. FFs are also required for the manufacture of new and replacement parts. Routine activities like maintenance, for nuclear and hydro for that matter, are supported by FF driven heavy lift and mobile equipment. It’s the small things that get you in the end.

It’s a simple enough concept to understand. Maybe you can’t or don’t want to understand it though I can’t see why not. Your own list supports the conclusion. The funny thing is, you have actually agreed with the concept though obviously without realising it.

I think you and I both will be spared having to face the 22nd century.

I have a feeling that this has all been hashed out years ago on this forum. It is neither new thinking or a revelation. It is way off point in this particular thread though.

[Tanada]

Hydrogen vehicles won't drive anything but bankruptcy, it takes way too much energy to manufacture and store the Hydrogen they would be using.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', 'S')o now you introduce another element into the discussion where there was none before. Did I or Beery for that matter mention any time frame? No. It suddenly suits your purpose to introduce it to try to reduce the impact of what we said. ie, when FF becomes depleted, the electrical power production of the USA becomes dramatically insufficient.

[Beery1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'P')resident Obama claims the recent large increases in NG reserves found with frakking are sufficient to supply the US for 100 years.