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Crisis of capitalism

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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Oakley » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 01:43:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '
')
Gold used as money involves no promise? Really. Why use gold at all? Why not just barter your goods?
Banks can only charge interest on fiat money? Show me a bank that will lend you gold without charging interest.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our assertion that gold and silver are promises I see as incorrect. You assertion that gold and silver only work in an expanding economy I see as incorrect.


OK. Let me put it this way. There is an armegeddon. And you are holding the last morsel of food. How much gold will you trade it for?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou assertion that money and freedom cannot coexist I see as incorrect if that money is gold and silver coinage. You assertion that money and freedom cannot coexist is correct if that money is fiat, scrip, real bills, bills of credit, or any other bank credit without 100% gold and silver coinage as reserves against the banks deposit liabilities.


Then how come hierarchies and slavery existed in the Roman empire. Back then actual gold and silver were used as money. And they manged to inflate gold by mixing copper with it for 2 centuries. So if your assertion that slavery cannot exist in gold money system is correct, this shouldn't have happened.
The fact is all money, including gold gravitate towards people who are perceived have the best chance of fulfilling promises.Why? Because money is a promise to begin with. Inflation happens when people make too many promises that are not fulfilled.
Back in those days, it was the emperors. These days it is banks and corporate oligarchs.


Why not just barter instead of using gold and silver? Because barter meant that I must find someone who has what I want that wants what I have. Barter is extremely inefficient because two parties must find each other, each having what the other wants, in the proper quantities. I can hardly trade to get a milk cow, if I only have eggs to trade with and the owner of the milk cow only wants a dozen eggs.

Where did I say that banks can only charge interest on fiat. I said they create credit out of thin air and loan it out at interest. They could loan out gold at interest, if they have it and in fact they do that with "bullion banks". But this is small potatoes and has nothing to do with the basis of the US monetary system which is based on debt.

You argument about armageddon is spurious simply because that would not be a failure of gold as a medium of exchange, but rather a failure of food production. Today I can't use any money to buy a nuclear bomb either because they are not available in any market I am allowed to trade in. If someone is not willing to sell me food at any price because of extreme shortage this does not mean that someone has reneged on a promise. It means that there is no food to sell. And it certainly does not mean that I starved to death because someone broke a promise; it means I starved to death because I did not have the foresight to insure that I could provide my own food.

It was you who said that money and freedom cannot coexist. I did not say that gold and silver as money guarantees that freedom will exist; what I said was that gold and silver as money and freedom can coexist. So your example of Rome is also spurious. The fact that Rome made slaves out of certain people and used gold and silver coins as money is not an indictment of the these coins as money but an indictment of their pursuit of empire and the capture of people to use as slaves. All societies, free and slave, will have a hierarchy. In a slave society the distribution of wealth will be skewed in favor of those at the top, while in a free society, wealth will follow a normal bell curve distribution with the majority having the majority of the wealth and only a few being extremely rich and a few being extremely poor.

The issue of Rome debasing their coins is also spurious. The debasement of gold and silver coins is a partial abandonment of these coins as a system of money; it is simply theft of some of the purchasing power they had.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby prajeshbhat » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 02:30:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', ' ')I did not say that gold and silver as money guarantees that freedom will exist; what I said was that gold and silver as money and freedom can coexist.


What is your basis of this? Why just gold? I am trying to figure out how you correlate gold with freedom. If people were honest and had no intention of enslaving each other, a paper currency should work just as fine as gold.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was you who said that money and freedom cannot coexist.


I still stand by it. As long as people are pursuing surplus and expectations of future growth, all evils will continue to exist. And money is what people use to make promises on future growth. What they use for money is irrelevant.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Cid_Yama » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 03:22:09

Cog, not at all what I said this time. EU was saying the Democrats would lose both houses in 2010. I said we would keep them both, which we almost did.

This time I'm saying the Republicans will be swept out of power in a landslide against Republican overreach and attempts to eliminate programs like Social Security and Medicare, and attacks on Unions, the minimum wage and child labor laws.

You can't openly attack the interests of the working class like that without them waking up and getting righteously angry. And they are NOW awake.

This is still a Democracy and there are more of us than there are of you. (Us being the forces of righteousness, and you being the minions of Satan's Corporatocracy.)

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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby AdTheNad » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 06:10:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'O')ne of the major group of corporations that fleeces the US public are the commercial banks and Federal Reserve, which operate the current financial scam we call our monetary system. I have railed against this in many posts on this site.

In a free society, governments should not be permitted to grant corporations charters, so the forms of businesses would be limited to sole proprietorships and partnerships where the owners are fully liable.

I would do away with corporations as legal entities. It was the government creation of corporations that allowed for huge concentrations of wealth into corporations. Without corporate structures the size, market influence, and political influence of businesses would be limited, and without the thousands of laws that inhibit free trade the free market could actually work its magic.

Perhaps the current fascist (corporate / government economic collusion) system will give rise to the next American Revolution. The more and more I look at conditions today I am reminded of the conditions that gave rise to the American Revolution and the French Revolution. Plunder and control of the majority for the benefit of the few.

This post answers a couple of questions I didn't get round to asking yet, but leaves a couple of things unclear for me.

It seems you favour a small government that is stronger than any corporation, and to achieve that you want to ensure that corporations don't exist. Is that a fair representation? My views generally are, that I favour a government stronger than any corporation, so the bigger corporations get, the bigger the government has to be, to maintain control. We currently have big corporations who make the laws, which is the worst of both worlds. I think we probably both believe there should be independence between gov and business to avoid corruption, with an emphasis on laws that are best for everyone, not just the benefit of the connected few?

So, which is better, a world with no corporations, or one where a government grows in relation to the size of corporations? That's a tricky question with many things to consider. The problem is, I hate corruption, which large gov and corps lead to, but I do like my iPhone and Xbox, which I don't believe would exist without companies as large as Apple and Microsoft. Any comments on this implication to a world without large corps?
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Cog » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 06:17:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'C')og, not at all what I said this time. EU was saying the Democrats would lose both houses in 2010. I said we would keep them both, which we almost did.

This time I'm saying the Republicans will be swept out of power in a landslide against Republican overreach and attempts to eliminate programs like Social Security and Medicare, and attacks on Unions, the minimum wage and child labor laws.

You can't openly attack the interests of the working class like that without them waking up and getting righteously angry. And they are NOW awake.

This is still a Democracy and there are more of us than there are of you. (Us being the forces of righteousness, and you being the minions of Satan's Corporatocracy.)

Video

Video

Best look to your soul. It's the end of the world, and you're on the wrong side. Christ is not a Get Out of Hell Free card.


Hey this is great. I have another prediction I can look for in 2012 to show how wrong you were.

Again
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby prajeshbhat » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 07:28:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', 'S')o, which is better, a world with no corporations, or one where a government grows in relation to the size of corporations? That's a tricky question with many things to consider. The problem is, I hate corruption, which large gov and corps lead to, but I do like my iPhone and Xbox, which I don't believe would exist without companies as large as Apple and Microsoft. Any comments on this implication to a world without large corps?


Now iphones and xboxes are all made in China. A communist country where all big corporations work for the benefit of the big government. If these american corporations go belly up, these things will will still be made. They will just be sold under a different brand name. So you will have to make do with hi-phones and rex-boxes.

So there you go. Does that solve your dilemma?
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby dinopello » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 08:24:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'N')ow iphones and xboxes are all made in China. A communist country where all big corporations work for the benefit of the big government. If these american corporations go belly up, these things will will still be made. They will just be sold under a different brand name. So you will have to make do with hi-phones and rex-boxes.


The supply chain for something as complex as an iphone spans several countries. If the global economy collapses enough to belly up the American corps, we'll probably be in more of a situation technology-wise closer to the movie "Ever Since the World Ended" with tech savvy engineers scavaging parts to make gadgets that mostly have to do with basic needs (e.g. electricity).

Who needs a calander app for one entry - 6AM: Find food... 8O

Fighting off the zombies is one of those things you can't schedule... 8O 8O

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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Oakley » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 09:33:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', ' ')I did not say that gold and silver as money guarantees that freedom will exist; what I said was that gold and silver as money and freedom can coexist.


What is your basis of this? Why just gold? I am trying to figure out how you correlate gold with freedom. If people were honest and had no intention of enslaving each other, a paper currency should work just as fine as gold.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was you who said that money and freedom cannot coexist.


I still stand by it. As long as people are pursuing surplus and expectations of future growth, all evils will continue to exist. And money is what people use to make promises on future growth. What they use for money is irrelevant.


It should be clear that the current financial system in the US is an instrument of slavery. Banks have the privilege of creating money out of thin air and loaning it out at interest. This results in a huge transfer of wealth from the public to the banks and a concentration of wealth in the bankers' hands. Obviously such as monetary system destroys freedom, hence it cannot coexist with freedom.

Paper currency not backed by gold or silver comes into the market place either by being loaned into existence as is the system in the US where bankers fleece the public, or it is spent into existence where the government fleeces the public without people understanding that this creates an additional tax on them. So not even counting the destructive effects on the economy from the boom bust cycle that inflating with paper currency creates, the public is fleeced either by paying interest on the money or by being taxed by the mere issuance of the money, depending on how it comes into existence. Someone works and is unjustly deprived of the wealth that work creates while another enjoys the fruits of the workers efforts in a system forced upon the productive worker, and that is by definition slavery.

On the other hand, gold and silver coins do not allow for the creating of money except by the exchange of resources of miners and minters to create it (the Constitution authorized Congress to mint coins and prohibits the States from making anything but gold and silver coins legal tender). Hence gold and silver as money do not destroy freedom and can easily coexist with freedom. While gold and silver can be loaned at interest, if people freely choose to borrow it, the basis for a gold and silver coin monetary system is not enslaving debt.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby dohboi » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 09:49:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t should be clear that the current financial system in the US is an instrument of slavery.


And once again, satire is truer than MSM:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/visa-exposed-as-massive-credit-card-scam,21136/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Visa Exposed As Massive Credit Card Scam
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Oakley » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 09:54:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '
')This post answers a couple of questions I didn't get round to asking yet, but leaves a couple of things unclear for me.

It seems you favour a small government that is stronger than any corporation, and to achieve that you want to ensure that corporations don't exist. Is that a fair representation? My views generally are, that I favour a government stronger than any corporation, so the bigger corporations get, the bigger the government has to be, to maintain control. We currently have big corporations who make the laws, which is the worst of both worlds. I think we probably both believe there should be independence between gov and business to avoid corruption, with an emphasis on laws that are best for everyone, not just the benefit of the connected few?

So, which is better, a world with no corporations, or one where a government grows in relation to the size of corporations? That's a tricky question with many things to consider. The problem is, I hate corruption, which large gov and corps lead to, but I do like my iPhone and Xbox, which I don't believe would exist without companies as large as Apple and Microsoft. Any comments on this implication to a world without large corps?


Corporations require laws that allow for their creation. Simple change the laws and prohibit government from creating corporations or allowing existing corporations to operate. With a phasing in of such laws corporations would be forced to sell their assets and the remaining possible forms for businesses to take would be partnerships and sole proprietorships, and because of the nature of these organizations their sizes would be naturally limited. This would effectively break up the concentration of wealth now held by corporations and distributed it into much smaller entities, automatically creating more competition. It would not preclude the invention or all the goodies that you like, and might even bring them forth more quickly without the inherent and stifling bureaucracy in big corporations.

Given that we have more government now than we have ever had in the history of the US, tell me if big government has worked to prevent the predatory practices of big corporations or has government joined with the big corporations to plunder and control the public. I think human nature being what it is, if power exist it is abused, and this is why the best system is one where power is not concentrated in the hands of the few. Ideally, people should possess power over their own individual lives and it is only when they use their own power to commit acts of aggression against others that we collectively, through government, use power to thwart and punish their aggression.

Corporations are a problem created by government and then instead of going to the root of the problem and denying government the power to create corporations, you suggest that we address the results with even more destructive government intrusion into the economy. If a physician took such an approach of treating the symptoms and not the disease, I think he would have a terrible rate of success with his patients.
Last edited by Oakley on Mon 22 Aug 2011, 10:10:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby vision-master » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 10:01:34

What does the Vatican fall under?
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby prajeshbhat » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 10:20:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')he supply chain for something as complex as an iphone spans several countries. If the global economy collapses enough to belly up the American corps, we'll probably be in more of a situation technology-wise closer to the movie "Ever Since the World Ended" with tech savvy engineers scavaging parts to make gadgets that mostly have to do with basic needs (e.g. electricity).

Who needs a calander app for one entry - 6AM: Find food... 8O

Fighting off the zombies is one of those things you can't schedule... 8O 8O


I would expect companies like Apple to do well in the future. We've had global supply chains and silk roads for a 1000 years now. We already seem to be in living in some kind of apocalyptic future. Young people have already escaped into cyberspace where they communicate with 500 faceless strangers. In the meanwhile the real world is collapsing all around us. But we couldn't care less. With our eyes glued to the shining colorful screens of i-gadgets. We all look like clueless zombies to neutral observers.
If I were steve jobs I would develop an app for depression survival. And scrap phones from all the other brands(nokia, motorola, blackberry and what have you) can be smashed for silver. And an app for Zombie survival is always a safe investment. :wink:
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby AgentR11 » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 11:40:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'H')ey this is great. I have another prediction I can look for in 2012 to show how wrong you were.
Again


We still got 14.x months to go before the election and we're already nuts.
Gonna be some tired, tired consultants and pollsters at thanksgiving dinner in 2012.

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P: "huh"
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P: "Hello"
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P "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!"
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Timo » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 14:44:44

This might be way out of line here, but it's something that i've been thinking about lately. Pre-emptive caveat: I'm a realist; not religious. Anyway, it seems to me that "growth" is required by capitalism to function, and the only way for capitalism to grow is to exploit the weaknesses of the masses propensity to succumb to one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins. Sloth, greed, lust, etc., etc........ Capitalism seems to exist, or has morphed into, anyway, the fulfillment and perpetuation of human weakness.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Shaved Monkey » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 18:56:21

The crisis comes when people stop chasing the carrot and wake up to the imprisoning scam that is the American Dream.

Grow your own food,learn to cook,if you can, build your own shelter, make your own stuff, fix things,recycle things,become more efficient,try and get off the grid,use less energy,shop less,make less rubbish,trade and barter your skills and produce,try to have a better life not better stuff,share your excess,don't read/watch or listen to mainstream media,think,learn,help,plant more trees.
Form a cartel of like minded people.

Enough people do this and its goodnight consumer society.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Sixstrings » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 19:10:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', 'T')he crisis comes when people stop chasing the carrot and wake up to the imprisoning scam that is the American Dream.


The ultimate "Atlas shrugs.." what if the consumer "shrugged" and decided to not keep up with the Joneses? What if consumers decide their iPad 4 is fine and they don't need an iPad 5 and iPads 6, 7, 8, and 9 just for the sake of staying hip and cool?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')row your own food,learn to cook,if you can, build your own shelter, make your own stuff, fix things,recycle things,become more efficient,try and get off the grid,use less energy,shop less,make less rubbish,trade and barter your skills and produce,try to have a better life not better stuff,share your excess,don't read/watch or listen to mainstream media,think,learn,help,plant more trees.


OTOH.. a simple, rural life is boring. Most people raised in that lifestyle just want to get off the farm. This is going on in China, their rural farming villages are actually in beautiful landscapes, yet they choose factory jobs in the dirty ugly cities. I was watching a Chinese documentary, an old woman said the only reason she stayed on the farm was because Mao made her -- if she had a choice she would have left, and here is a woman who's been farming her whole life. It seems like the universal goal in China is education, doing something "better," they don't seem to value simple rural life as a choice.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby Crusty » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 20:43:19

I like the way you think "Shaved Monkey"..... Power to the People!!!!
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby dohboi » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 21:01:02

6S, rural life can be boring, but people are also very affected by what is presented to them as norms and desirables.

In China today, just as in America of yesteryear, the first thing that electrification of the countryside brings is reliable radio and tv and with those come tons of advertisements and shows presenting the exiting happy urban (or suburban) lifestyle.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby careinke » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 21:59:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'C')og, not at all what I said this time. EU was saying the Democrats would lose both houses in 2010. I said we would keep them both, which we almost did.

This time I'm saying the Republicans will be swept out of power in a landslide against Republican overreach and attempts to eliminate programs like Social Security and Medicare, and attacks on Unions, the minimum wage and child labor laws.

You can't openly attack the interests of the working class like that without them waking up and getting righteously angry. And they are NOW awake.

This is still a Democracy and there are more of us than there are of you. (Us being the forces of righteousness, and you being the minions of Satan's Corporatocracy.)

Video

Video

Best look to your soul. It's the end of the world, and you're on the wrong side. Christ is not a Get Out of Hell Free card.


So you were almost not wrong? That's funny :-D
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Postby careinke » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 22:11:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', 'T')he crisis comes when people stop chasing the carrot and wake up to the imprisoning scam that is the American Dream.

Grow your own food,learn to cook,if you can, build your own shelter, make your own stuff, fix things,recycle things,become more efficient,try and get off the grid,use less energy,shop less,make less rubbish,trade and barter your skills and produce,try to have a better life not better stuff,share your excess,don't read/watch or listen to mainstream media,think,learn,help,plant more trees.
Form a cartel of like minded people.

Enough people do this and its goodnight consumer society.


Truly wise words SM. We have passed the tipping point.
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