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Large fish kill on the Pearl River

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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 17:05:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')awyers and injury lawsuits are better than regulation and the rule of law?

Now I've heard it all.


So what is your suggestion? Or do you think the system is stable? You Libs are big on criticism, but woefully short on solutions that make mathematical sense.

Seriously, I am all ears.

No I don't think you're serious at all careinke.

Explain to me how eliminating the rules that forced industry and business to stop polluting and cleaned up the air and water back in the '70s will lead to cleaner air and water? Do you really think "libs" made up things like acid rain, air & water pollution to take away your freedoms? Crimeny, what planet do you live on?

Weren't you just ragging on me because you thought I was defending industrial agriculture? Industrial ag is the epitome of unconstrained pillaging of the "commons" - isn't that obvious to you? Do you seriously think contract growers renting a plot of ground give a crap about being sued? Do you detect even a small amount of discord in your rhetoric when you would eliminate any constraints on exploiting the one thing that's most important to our kids? And I ain't talking about your money.

You poo-pooed me because you "have seen the deserts in Eqypt (or somewhere)" - why don't you tell me about how successful was their lack of environmental regulation and their go at society without law?

I don't know about where you live but when I was a kid the skys over the central valley of CA were a brown haze - just to take one example, and we were nowhere near a large city. Today there has been an amazing improvement in air and water quality yet even in Communist California half the muni wells are condemned in the valley and the other half all have elevated nitrate levels. Even with CAs onerous environmental regs it's hard to stop farmers from dousing crops with nitrogen fertiliser till it fills every well.

Yet you are going to tell me a class action lawsuit is going to eliminate the over-application?

Blue Baby deaths are still happening to field workers, why isn't anyone suing them now?


And low and behold, dairies are moving out of state because to be profitable they cannot afford to not contaminate the groundwater - so they move to states with little or no regs - so they can. Is that your idea of Freedom? I'm sure you'd be happy to celebrate the freedom of one moving in next door and start milking a thousand or two with no regulation to stop them from polluting your field and well

So is that your vision? A land of "freedom" for the powerful where your neighbor is free to do exactly as much tromping on his neighbors and the next generation's inheritance as he's big enough - and the bigger he is of course the better, because in your system it's not about rule of law, it's utterly and completely about money and power.


I really can't get over how easy it's been for the big guys to hold the blade to our necks and convince us turn our head by saying: "Hey, look over there at those liberals!"


So your plan is to criticize mine and offer no alternative? WHERE IS YOUR PLAN!
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby Pops » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 17:45:05

My plan for what?

The fallacy is in your argument that regulation dosen't work - it works fine given the will to go against the money.

Same with 'we can't "afford" to keep the rich from raping the environment"

or 'The poor 1%, so put upon and held back by regulation they can only acquire 80% of everything'

and "if only we all had the chance to be "free" we'd all do the right thing and we'd all be rich."

That is a lie Careinke, I don't know where it came from but it's a crock.


As Buffet said the other day, 'It's class war alright - my side already won.'

And there is no one posting on this site that is on that side.

It boggles my mind, I'm about to pop a gasket!

Where the hell are the pitchforks?



[edit for spittle removal]
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 17:55:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'M')y plan for what?

The fallacy is in your argument that regulation dosen't work - it works fine given the will to go against the money.

Same with 'we can't "afford" to keep the rich from raping the environment"

or 'The poor 1%, so put upon and held back by regulation they can only acquire 80% of everything'

and "if only we all had the chance to be "free" we'd all do the right thing and we'd all be rich."

That is a lie Careinke, I don't know where it came from but it's a crock.


As Buffet said the other day, 'It's class war alright - my side already won.'

And there is no one posting on this site that is on that side.

It boggles my mind, I'm about to pop a gasket!

Where the hell are the pitchforks?



[edit for spittle removal]


OK just so I have this straight. "The system is fine, there is nothing to worry about, move along". Got it.
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby Pops » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 18:12:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'O')K just so I have this straight. "The system is fine, there is nothing to worry about, move along". Got it.

So that's all you got?

Really?

Toss out a few 'evil government' & 'if only we were free' platitudes, written by some political hack somewhere, co-signed by Murdock and broadcast on Coast to Coast or Rush or wherever - then finish up with a little flip and not even address one thing I said?


Crap, doesn't anyone have an interest in what is going on beyond the lowest denominator morphine muzak pumped out by the people that own this country?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 19:05:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'O')K just so I have this straight. "The system is fine, there is nothing to worry about, move along". Got it.

So that's all you got?

Really?

Toss out a few 'evil government' & 'if only we were free' platitudes, written by some political hack somewhere, co-signed by Murdock and broadcast on Coast to Coast or Rush or wherever - then finish up with a little flip and not even address one thing I said?


Crap, doesn't anyone have an interest in what is going on beyond the lowest denominator morphine muzak pumped out by the people that own this country?


Oh no, I have LOTS more, it just seems one way. You have not presented anything from your side yet. Until you do, this conversation is pretty much over. Maybe "hope and change" should be "we have done nothing, and we are out of ideas".
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 19:44:18

Anyone who believes that our environment is over regulated isn't very old. If you had seen some of the first growth forests when we still had a few that hadn't been turned into 2x4's ,you can't help but think about all that we have lost.
I am sure there are a few who honestly believe that the poor corporations are suffering under the yoke of regulation, but as you get older you will start to see that the regulations have only slowed the rape down a bit. The end result is still rape.
The fact is, our country is now owned and controlled by corporations and the rich. Anyone who can't see that is living on a diet of Beck and Limbaugh, or is just too stupid to see the obvious.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:17:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')his idiot reminds me how the American education system has failed. That we have not taught an intelligent person the basics of our system is a crime. He, his parents, teachers, and school should be ashamed that this mess slipped through the system.


First of all, I can not be an idiot and intelligent at the same time. Ignorant and intelligent perhaps, but not an idiot and intelligent.

That said, my lowest IQ score was in the 6th grade at 145. I was a national merit scholar recipient, earned a full scholarship to college based on merit not need (although I was pretty poor). It paid tuition, books, lab fees and $100 per month. I worked for my room, board, and spending money because my parents could only afford to give me $50 a month.

I have a BS in experimental psychology and a MS in information systems and computer management.

I served as an Officer in the military and retired early as a Major. While in the military I graduated from Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College, and Air Battle Management Staff Officer Course. I was a Master Instructor, held a TS/SCI clearance, my medals include The Bronze Star with two clusters, several Air Medals, Meritorious Service Medal etc. I have been in combat on more than one occasion. My last assignment was Mission Crew Commander on the E-3 AWACS.

After leaving the Air Force I helped install and train the RSAF on their Peace Shield Air Defense System. I worked in Saudi for 9 years and made enough to retire at 49 with a nice couple of chunks of land (paid for) and zero debt. The land supports itself by earning enough to pay the taxes.

Since my retirement, I have been studying and implementing permiculture principles on my land. After nine years, I am pretty confident I have created a self sustaining system which could feed my family with zero outside inputs.

Since sixth grade I have always volunteered my time in some type of public service. My family took second place for fund raising in this years Skagit Valley Relay for life event. Plus I volunteer at the local grade school every week helping kids with science, math, and history.

So yea, I think my deceased parents, teachers, and school are not too ashamed of me.

Well enough about me. P, tell me a little about you. So far I know; you have been arrested, you are not very good at arithmetic, and you like to whine. What else.
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 14:55:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here in your permaculture design program does it instruct you on trapping gophers or shooting deer?


Where in the Heck did that question come from, and why don't you answer my questions instead of pulling this stuff out of thin air? I could trap a gopher and shoot a deer at age 11. Boy scouts, survival school and my passion for primitive skills will stead me just fine. I don't have gophers in an overabundance, my two stray cats take care of most of the moles and mice, and I feed the carcases they bring me to the chickens. Moles also do not seem to eat my veggies they just push things out of the ground. They do provide soil aeration, and make a really nice fluffy mound of dirt for soil blocks. The dogs keep the deer at bay and I look on them as an emergency food source if needed. (Did you know the deer population is much larger now than pre Columbus?)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he wealthy rich are predators and the only way the poor and middle class can ever hope to live amongst them is under the protection of a strong government and law.


Government is a manifestation of violence. If you had studied Huntington, and Clausewitz you would understand that. Big government is a form of slavery. It steals from the productive, and makes the poor dependent on its handouts in exchange for votes. The rich run the government, they do it by buying off the politicians from both sides. The bought politicians, in turn, craft intrusive laws and sell them as safety, and good for you things. In reality, the laws are barriers placed by the rich in order to enhance their own wealth and limit competition.

Your solution is to expand this bankrupt mess with even more regulation and borrowing. I would like to see the government reduced to a manageable and affordable size. I would also like to see government decentralized to the local level wherever possible. No, I don't want Anarchy (which on the present course is probably what we are going to end up with). Govt does play a role in defense and protection of individual rights.

The failures of Big government are legion; The War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the Tax Code, Immigration control etc etc etc..... But we can leave those to another discussion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems you want to turn the legal system over to the ones with the most money and power. But they are not on your side.


No I want a system that actually compensates the victim by the offender, while at the same time imposes a high enough cost to the offender that it is not cost effective for them to continue with the policies they are using. Criminal penalties against a Corporation is just ludicrous. Contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe a company is a person. You can not hang a company or throw a company in jail. Companies don't eat sleep or think. Now, if you could throw the owners (stockholders) in jail, I might be persuaded. :) But that would actually hold individuals responsible for their actions, not likely in today's climate.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou asked me what I was arrested for. It was defending the Headwaters Forest. At the time it was the last substantial old growth redwoods not under federal or state jurisdiction. It was the hope of the environmentalists and timber/fisheries workers (those not in awe of an international powerful community) that the trees would be managed sustainably for long term ecologic and economic health of the community. That would have meant selective instead of clear-cutting land, managing the forest for other different values (to prevent downstream flooding of homes and property, salmon production, nature tourism, etc) in addition for lumber profit maximization. But that would contradict corporate mandate. You see the owners of the land, Maxxam, had only mandate there; to cut trees as quickly and completely as possible.


OK you get my respect on that one. My forest is set up FSC certified. Current forest practices are just an extension of the large monoculture agriculture that Pops so rigorously defends. Besides I have a soft spot in my heart for civil disobedience. It shows the dedication of the protester and makes the PTB take notice for a minute or two.

The last selective cutting we did was to take out the Alders that were reaching maturity. Alders were paying a premium compared to Fir. It's kind of funny, Warehouser has spent millions trying to eradicate Alder from their monoculture forests, and today it is one of the higher paying woods. Karma does work sometimes. 8O
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby Pops » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 17:57:28

Let's not call people stupid names and tell them how stupid they are, pretty please.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby careinke » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 20:05:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ude, you have an anti-government problem.


Actually, I have no problem at all being anti government. :-D
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Re: Large fish kill on the Pearl River

Unread postby Pops » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 20:38:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'Y')ou have not presented anything from your side yet.

My side?
Hehe, you mean the whole 'rule of law' - 'social contract' bit that every democracy in the world strives to perfect and every person living under a real plutocracy dreams about, that 'side'?

Or maybe I don't get your argument, on the one hand you say under 'my' rules, capital buys off the G, which then makes rules favoring the rich and I agree completely with that. But your solution is to do exactly what capital actually wants more than anything and remove all the rules and methods of enforcement leaving the individual to fend for himself.

You're a smarter guy than me, yet somehow you think that capital will do the right thing when daily there is blatant evidence it will always, always put profit first, even in our over-regulated society?

That's your 'side'?

I can only assume the the first thing to go would be the IRS, correct?


Anyway as far as lawyers and local government being the great protector...
To think that an international corporation with a balance sheet larger than many countries is going to give a rip about an ordinance that Gut Water Township passes Is ridiculous. Or that the news Justice o' Peace Smallwood granted an injunction regarding somethingorother would make it past the janitor's closet.. come on.


Yours is the is the Bhopal Model. It was in effect when Union Carbide snuffed however many thousand proles, then payed off the families with few bags of rice.
It's the Nigerian Model where every year sees a Macondo's worth of oil spilled.
It's Lead Battery recycling model where 10 million people are exposed to lead worldwide including the largest in latin America that was finally shut down only at the urging of the US CDC - certainly an agency out of control, wouldn't you say?
It's the Chinese model where millions of children make stuff 12 hours a day in return for a bowl of rice and a mat.


You're right, your 'side' isn't worth discussing.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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