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Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:30:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'S')econd America is the most armed populace on the planet and with 75 million guns in private hands the military would be outnumbered by 150 to 1.

His argument is that most of arms (and best makes of privately held guns) are in hands of pro-military right wingers, so these privately owned guns would be an asset for military, not for rebellion.



I'm not sure J6P will have much use for the oligarchy a few years from now, I think things will split pretty much 50/50.....
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:33:11

Oh, and while breaking out the smoker, if the quarter masters need more quality ammo, I have the right stuff to chip in too. :-D
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby peeker01 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:33:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EOTWAWKI', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '.')..gang bangers and liberal morons...


How about Fuck You you fucking fascist. Liberals have nothing to do with Gang Bangers and being a liberal is the result of intelligent observation and reflection combined with compassion for other people and love of the planet whereas Conservatism is the default position for the thoughtless and the greedy and the selfish.

Once more Fuck You!

And the moderators can fuck off too if they don't like it. :P


Your post screams intelligent reflection and compassion.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:37:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')You guys in the liberal city cores would want to fight against them anyway?? Whatever, I'll be breaking out the ribs and smoker for the parade when the troops are finished restoring order.

So how it is that in Afghanistan you are losing war on peasants?
Most US soldiers killed by IED-s.
And off duty soldier could be taken by shotgun or a handgun (say shot in back if need be).

They are not parading fully armed all the time... they have families which could be targeted (often including little kiddies...) ...and even an odd prostitute could give them a final stab...
Are you aware, how Attila the Hun have ended his life?
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:43:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:42:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I')'m not sure J6P will have much use for the oligarchy a few years from now, I think things will split pretty much 50/50.....


That might be true if it weren't for the fact that J6P has a kid or cousin *in* the military. Not to mention that the word, "oligarchy" isn't even likely part of his normal vocabulary.

There just aren't any good fits for this supposed risk of uprising.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby prajeshbhat » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:46:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Oakley:-

Yeah, this government is corrupt. The founding fathers didn't forsee the government becoming a giant wealth redistribution machine, powered by the "we aren't given enough for nothing" majority that pays NO federal income tax. The top 5% of income earners pay about 60% of the federal tax, and the top 1% pay about 40% of it. These people earn a FAR smaller proportion of the total income than this tax bite, BTW. Yeah, it is a pretty terrible deal for those who actually produce the most.

But don't worry. With people like your and Obama's "punish the successful" attitude, these folks are willing to provide less and less jobs. They'll invest internationally, leave, or both.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow is it that you conclude that I am a person like Obama who wants to punish the rich. I am rich myself, and do everything I can to avoid the plunder of government. I am politically a libertarian and believe in free markets, and the absolute minimum government which would be about 5% of what government we have today.


May I know what is it that you do? And why haven't you left yet? Are you into the oil business?
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:48:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I')'m not sure J6P will have much use for the oligarchy a few years from now, I think things will split pretty much 50/50.....


That might be true if it weren't for the fact that J6P has a kid or cousin *in* the military. Not to mention that the word, "oligarchy" isn't even likely part of his normal vocabulary.

There just aren't any good fits for this supposed risk of uprising.



I served with more than a few guys from the "hood" who I am more than sure would be less then obidient of orders to shoot their neighbors......
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 12:55:10

I see we're off topic here, but it's always worth looking at the basic assumptions wingnuts use in constructing their doomer fantasies:

1) We are supposedly close to some sort of national racial conflict.
2) The army and police will line up on the side of whites for purely racial reasons.
3) There could be a fracturing of the army and police on racial lines.

None of this is new - it the staple of white supremacist fantasies going back over 30 years.

One of the reasons the Wisconsin protests blew wingnuts' minds was that they always assumed that the cops were snarling attack dogs ready to go all "Kent State" at a moment's notice and gun down their neighbors. They were shocked when the cops joined the protests.

Likewise I think it is the Florida FOP that has announced they will abandon GOP candidates.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:05:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I') see we're off topic here, but it's always worth looking at the basic assumptions wingnuts use in constructing their doomer fantasies:

1) We are supposedly close to some sort of national racial conflict.
2) The army and police will line up on the side of whites for purely racial reasons.
3) There could be a fracturing of the army and police on racial lines.

None of this is new - it the staple of white supremacist fantasies going back over 30 years.

One of the reasons the Wisconsin protests blew wingnuts' minds was that they always assumed that the cops were snarling attack dogs ready to go all "Kent State" at a moment's notice and gun down their neighbors. They were shocked when the cops joined the protests.

Likewise I think it is the Florida FOP that has announced they will abandon GOP candidates.



I think we will see a lot of political realignment the next few years and old assumptions may not prove to be true, already much of the middle class is alarmed at republican attacks on unions and their blame of the unemployed for the countries problems, not to mention anger at continued coddling of Wall Street.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby Pops » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:11:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')hey joined IN ORDER TO FIGHT.

Actually most recruits joined because they couldn't get a job or couldn't pay for college, not because they were bored with Harvard and Martha's Vineyard.

I'm sure there are guys who'd shoot their neighbors if ordered but I'd also expect to see a good portion desert and soon turn up on the other side shooting back. At least that's what my son and SIL have told me in response to exactly that question.

Kent State was effectively the end of the Vietnam war. Even in those somewhat less "coddling" times when kids throwing rocks were "dirty hippies", the guard shooting students created quite a stir. Imagine todays paramilitary cops let alone regular army opening up on suburban moms with strollers?

I agree that pacification is the best bet for the plutocrats but they seem to have momentarily lost control of their minions who are calling for tossing the moochers under the bus.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:13:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', '
')I think we will see a lot of political realignment the next few years and old assumptions may not prove to be true, already much of the middle class is alarmed at republican attacks on unions and their blame of the unemployed for the countries problems, not to mention anger at continued coddling of Wall Street.

Your problem is that both Liberals and Rightwingers are leadin a nation towards bankruptcy...
Liberals at power will spend all the money on poor (and on themselves) until US is entirely hollowed out.
Rightwingers at power will waste the same money on military (and on themselves) until US is entirely hollowed out.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:13:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I') see we're off topic here, but it's always worth looking at the basic assumptions wingnuts use in constructing their doomer fantasies:

1) We are supposedly close to some sort of national racial conflict.
2) The army and police will line up on the side of whites for purely racial reasons.
3) There could be a fracturing of the army and police on racial lines.

None of this is new - it the staple of white supremacist fantasies going back over 30 years.

One of the reasons the Wisconsin protests blew wingnuts' minds was that they always assumed that the cops were snarling attack dogs ready to go all "Kent State" at a moment's notice and gun down their neighbors. They were shocked when the cops joined the protests.

Likewise I think it is the Florida FOP that has announced they will abandon GOP candidates.

I think we will see a lot of political realignment the next few years and old assumptions may not prove to be true, already much of the middle class is alarmed at republican attacks on unions and their blame of the unemployed for the countries problems, not to mention anger at continued coddling of Wall Street.
Like I was saying, the doomerscenarios are classic white supremacist
fantasy.

But going after the unions first, and especially the police unions (which lean GOP) was so blindly ideological that I think it's another example where they are so locked into the Mein Kampf script that they can't deviate from it even a little bit.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:20:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')magine todays paramilitary cops let alone regular army opening up on suburban moms with strollers?

They are trained to do exactly that in Iraq, so why would they not do it in US?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') agree that pacification is the best bet for the plutocrats but they seem to have momentarily lost control of their minions who are calling for tossing the moochers under the bus.

I also agree with that.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:21:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o how it is that in Afghanistan you are losing war on peasants?

The Afgan war is really over; what they are losing at, is something they aren't very good at. Reconstruction.

What they should have done, is break the Taliban, then leave. With a note pinned to the door... "Cya."

If the Taliban re-assert control, send another note, "Do anything unpleasant in the US, and we'll bust ya up again; otherwise, enjoy yourselves." Shouldn't take more than a few iterations for them to figure out they can have their little Islamic paradise as long as they keep their mitts off the US.

PS, Preston, I'm opposing, not constructing, the doomer fantasy, explaining why there will be NO uprising or civil war. The military won't align on racial or any other stupid lines, they'll support the civilian leadership of the federal government; whether that leadership is black, white, or purple, makes little difference. As to police unions, they are more Democrat than Republican; so its more odd that any would stay with any Republican candidates looking to reduce spending. As to Wisconsin, there was no violent uprising, just peaceful protest. Why would there be any violent response. The US way of handling protest, is to just let them protest until they are tired, ie, ignore them.

The whole point of my response is that there will be no starving peasants, and without starving peasants, there is no source of the uprising, and the overwhelming strength of the military insures that any physical attack on military structures would be easily repelled and suppressed, anyway.

So... I'm writing an ANTI-DOOM message on a doomer forum! My keyboard has been corrupted!!!
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:22:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I') see we're off topic here, but it's always worth looking at the basic assumptions wingnuts use in constructing their doomer fantasies:

1) We are supposedly close to some sort of national racial conflict.
2) The army and police will line up on the side of whites for purely racial reasons.
3) There could be a fracturing of the army and police on racial lines.

None of this is new - it the staple of white supremacist fantasies going back over 30 years.

One of the reasons the Wisconsin protests blew wingnuts' minds was that they always assumed that the cops were snarling attack dogs ready to go all "Kent State" at a moment's notice and gun down their neighbors. They were shocked when the cops joined the protests.

Likewise I think it is the Florida FOP that has announced they will abandon GOP candidates.

I think we will see a lot of political realignment the next few years and old assumptions may not prove to be true, already much of the middle class is alarmed at republican attacks on unions and their blame of the unemployed for the countries problems, not to mention anger at continued coddling of Wall Street.
Like I was saying, the doomerscenarios are classic white supremacist
fantasy.

But going after the unions first, and especially the police unions (which lean GOP) was so blindly ideological that I think it's another example where they are so locked into the Mein Kampf script that they can't deviate from it even a little bit.



I think going after unions with such zeal, and now playing games with the debt celing will alienate the Republican party from a good share of the middle class for quite some time. Recent elections in Wisconsin seem to bear me out.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:45:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')hey joined IN ORDER TO FIGHT.

Actually most recruits joined because they couldn't get a job or couldn't pay for college, not because they were bored with Harvard and Martha's Vineyard.


Ok, how bout I rephrase it a little, "They joined with the expectation that they would be fighting." No one walks into a recruiters office in this age thinking they are going to club-med for four years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m sure there are guys who'd shoot their neighbors if ordered but I'd also expect to see a good portion desert and soon turn up on the other side shooting back. At least that's what my son and SIL have told me in response to exactly that question.


Try a slightly different question, would they fire to defend themselves if an armed and firing mob rushed their position with no way to retreat. I don't think they'd ever be ordered to open fire on their neighbors to initiate violence. There's really no need, and its a waste of resources. No gain involved in such an order. If, and I doubt it possible, but IF we posit the existence of this armed, violent mob of starving peasants; the more likely engagement would look like troops stationed near depot X; mob rushes in shooting, this leads to dead mob. If you take the armed and violent part out of it, it is no longer an insurrection, thus no need to engage. Troops can either prevent entry by nonlethal means (barriers, foam, gas, whatever), or can drive away and abandon the depot (destroy first or not, depending on inventory), with police arresting a motley selection of the mob members over the following few weeks for purposes of entertainment. Again, no insurrection. I suspect "drive away" would be the order given, if the mob could overpower the nonlethal options without violence.

I just can't find a plausible sequence of events that leads to armed insurrection as long as the US military and food stamp cards are in the mix.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Imagine todays paramilitary cops let alone regular army opening up on suburban moms with strollers?


Again, no gain in such an order. Why would they do something that pointless and expensive?
Its a lefty doomer fantasy that just can't happen. Might as well imaging "what if gold coins fell from the sky, and sweet crude poured out of every culvert."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'm')omentarily lost control of their minions who are calling for tossing the moochers under the bus.

Did the food stamp cards stop working?
If not; control is still solidly in place, and this is just simply the way the American Nobility responds to protest and babble from the populace. They ignore it, and let'em scream and moan till they're all worn out, go home, and have dinner.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:51:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I') served with more than a few guys from the "hood" who I am more than sure would be less then obidient of orders to shoot their neighbors......


Where does this BS assertion come from?
What gain is there in ordering troops to open fire on civilians.
Can't, and won't happen.

The position I'm arguing is that an offensive, armed and firing mob, actively attacking a US military unit would meet with swift death; thus, it makes no sense for a well fed peasant to do any such thing, and civil structures are in place to insure that there aren't any starving peasants.

QED, no insurrection.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:00:19

I really don't foresee troops firing on civilians, but I can see outfits like Black Water doing it though.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:07:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'I') really don't foresee troops firing on civilians, but I can see outfits like Black Water doing it though.


Those are pretty small numbers though; could be useful for breaking up militarized gang activity or something in an abandoned city core; but other than that, it just doesn't fit the US profile. We've long since figured out that the best way to deal with protest is to simply continue to go about doing what you are doing; as long as both parties are co-opted by the Nobility, its fine even if they get mad enough to change the party in power, as long as its one of the two parties! And the no starving peasant doctrine insures that there will never be thousands of them in one place angry enough to kill and get killed, thus, no existential threat to their power.
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Re: Bold Predictions about the Debt Ceiling

Postby gollum » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:16:32

If there is a group that seems paranoid of the military it's the far right as opposed to the left wing in this country. Personally I can see the military outright refusing to get involved in civil disorder in this country should it ever come to that. In the long run I see us breaking up like the Soviet Union did and dividing up what's left of the military at that point. I also expect our military to degrade quite fast just as it did in the former Soviet Union when they collapsed.
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