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THE Fuel Cell Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
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Re: Fuel Cell breakthrough: 1/10th the size

Unread postby sampo » Mon 23 May 2005, 19:24:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DriveElectric', 'I')t looks like there are still advances being made in fuel cells. Maybe we should reconsider the potential for fuel cells in the future. Most members of PO.com (including me) typically have written off fuel cells as not feasible. Perhaps they actually do have a place in the energy mix of the future.


Just to be on topic for a second...Of course there are still big advances to be made in fuel cells, the technology is horribly immature for deployment on a scale large enough to be meaningful. Secondly, the whole concept of fuel cells require inputs (natural gas, platinum) that have their own short to medium term crisis points. I have seen no evidence that fuel cells will have much useful impact on the problems that will confront us in the short (10 years) term.

Now to be off topic:

The whole tree farm thing you guys have been talking about is so dumb. Renewable tree farms operate on time scales that could NEVER support the infrastructure we have in place. To imply otherwise is just a naive cornucopian dream.

If you think the lesson of easter island is not going to be learned over and over as this planet makes it's descent into olduvai, you are in denial. When starving mothers and fathers see their babies shivering in the cold, they wont give a rip if the last tree on the face of the planet needs to be cut down, they WILL get something to put into the boiler if it is humanly possible. doubt this at your own peril.

on a final note, this thread has convinced me that BiGG is a useless addition to the forums and i will now be using the ignore button. Anyone who treats the wisest and most reasoned members of the site the way he does is just extraneous noise that takes away from otherwise useful threads.

Goodbye BiGG, hope you get a clue.
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Unread postby thegrq » Tue 24 May 2005, 13:00:15

Sorry to come into this a little late but I just have to say something about Ceres Power and platinum in fuel cells.

To all of you who argue that platinum is required for fuel cells, you're dead wrong. Platinum is required for PEM fuel cells because they work at low temperatures. A direct methanol fuel cell like the one in the news article in the very first post will use platinum.

Ceres Power is developing solid oxide fuel cells (their stock is also not penny stock, they're a UK company). These fuel cells, along with many other types of fuel cells do not require platinum. The Ceres Power solid oxide fuel cell works at ~500C and uses ceramic catalysts NO PLATINUM. Solid oxide fuel cells though are not meant for transportation, they are meant for stationary applications. For more on solid oxide fuel cell technology, I've done a podcast which explains all about SOFCs.

In general many people, even people working in the fuel cell world, agree that fuel cells will not be placed in cars for a long long long time. Solid oxide fuel cells (at least as far as I'm concerned, although I do have a bias) have much more potential because they can use basically anything as a fuel (mostly methane or alcohols) and do not require hydrogen.
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Unread postby big_rc » Tue 24 May 2005, 13:44:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thegrq', 'S')orry to come into this a little late but I just have to say something about Ceres Power and platinum in fuel cells.

To all of you who argue that platinum is required for fuel cells, you're dead wrong. Platinum is required for PEM fuel cells because they work at low temperatures. A direct methanol fuel cell like the one in the news article in the very first post will use platinum.

Ceres Power is developing solid oxide fuel cells (their stock is also not penny stock, they're a UK company). These fuel cells, along with many other types of fuel cells do not require platinum. The Ceres Power solid oxide fuel cell works at ~500C and uses ceramic catalysts NO PLATINUM.


Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it was a PEMFC not a SOFC. You are right that these fuel cells don't use platinum as a catalyst (but they have their own issues.)
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Unread postby DriveElectric » Tue 24 May 2005, 22:47:51

This thread seems to have lost quite a bit of weight in a short period of time. Atkins? South Beach diet? :roll:
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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 24 May 2005, 22:52:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his thread seems to have lost quite a bit of weight in a short period of time. Atkins? South Beach diet? :roll:


Actually that would be the Moderator-tired-of-off-topic-threads-and-flame-wars-in-the-energy-technology-forum diet.
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Unread postby thegrq » Wed 25 May 2005, 12:23:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he issue with hydrogen is not in the fuel cell, it is in making the hydrogen.....fuel cells are utterly pointless. Not pointless, utterly pointless.


Ummm, the point about the Ceres Power fuel cell is that it doesn't run off of hydrogen, it runs off of natural gas. When most people think of fuel cells, they think of PEM fuel cells which require very pure hydrogen. The Ceres Power fuel cell is a solid oxide fuel cell, it doesn't need hydrogen. Ford even has a solid oxide fuel cell running off of paint fumes in one of their factories.

The Ceres Power fuel cell isn't revolutionary in that it doesn't require platinum, it's revolutionary in that it's a solid oxide fuel cell operating well at about 580C. A lot of fuel cells don't need platinum.
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Unread postby Berkeley » Thu 26 May 2005, 10:33:21

Thank you for the explanation. The press release was not clear. I thought the hot kind of fuel cells were very large. This sounds small.
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Unread postby Googolplex » Fri 27 May 2005, 04:30:01

In the end this is nothing more then a more efficient and less polluting (appearently) way to consume natural gas. Thats nice and all, but efficiency is not going to make peak oil go away.
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Unread postby Doly » Fri 27 May 2005, 04:36:41

Problem is, peak gas is going to happen shortly after peak oil. Things like this aren't really going to solve much.
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Unread postby thegrq » Fri 27 May 2005, 20:31:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')roblem is, peak gas is going to happen shortly after peak oil. Things like this aren't really going to solve much.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hats nice and all, but efficiency is not going to make peak oil go away.


Geeze, you guys really are all doomsters huh? Why do you even get up every day? The solid oxide fuel cells run off of methane, which could come from waste water treatment plants, it could come from methane from a landfill, or it can even run off of coal. The Department of Energy in the US is pushing coal and solid oxide fuel cells pretty hard right now.
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Re: 30 - 50% of what

Unread postby Aedo » Thu 23 Jun 2005, 03:37:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baldwincng', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he system will create CO2 savings of 30 to 50 per cent, even allowing for some CO2 being produced by the fuel cell running on natural gas."


BiGG,

Don't believe everything you read in the papers.

It may save 30-50% of C02 compared to old fashioned boilers, it will save very much less comnpared to efficient condensing boilers,


The saving of 30 - 50% is on supply of electricity and heat and a large part of the saving is in the electricity supply as you are correct in that condensing boilers are already very efficient

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'd')oubtful if it will save anything compared to domestic CHP? Not possible to tell, no technical data on their website.


It is a domestic CHP system - one with the potential for grid connection. This would enable large scale distributed generation and consequent reduction in gas use.
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Unread postby nth » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 16:42:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'P')roblem is, peak gas is going to happen shortly after peak oil. Things like this aren't really going to solve much.


The peak gas you are talking about are LPG. They basically model after oil and are found in oil, too.

Methane gas production doesn't operate in a bell shape curve.
Not only can you synthesize methane like thegrq pointed out, but there are a lot more gas than oil and we have not exploited gas all that much in this world.

This is not to say we have enough energy to satisfy the world's need.
We have to change our lifestyle drasticly no matter what. No technology can change that.
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Fuel cell cars will save the day *sarcasm*

Unread postby delphi319 » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 10:46:12

This gem was on the Yahoo front page this morning. When I read articles like this I want to cringe. Even worse, look at the posts on the Yahoo boards from some of the simpletons. Apparently, they were sleeping through high school physics class on the day the teacher talked about energy and the fact that, as my professor once put it, "you can't get something for nothing" (referring to energy production).

To think we will have 350 million FC cars on the road by 2050 is sheer lunacy.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... cells_dc_6
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Unread postby Madpaddy » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 11:00:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Financial Times reported earlier this month that Toyota aims to cut the cost of fuel-cell cars to $50,000 from more than $1 million by 2015. General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - News) aims to have a production-ready hydrogen vehicle by 2010 with a fuel cell that costs $5,000, it said. ($1=108.98 Yen)



Yes and at 25 times my annual salary - you can sign me up for say 2 now and 2 for the kids when they reach maturity. Economists defy geology once again.
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 14:16:33

Don't say "fuel cell car" say FreedomCar

http://www.uscar.org/freedomcar/

or is that FreeDumbCar?
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 14:27:28

If you were keeping up with fuel cells in the late 1990s, they were supposed to be better than the then viable battery electric vehicle and fuel cell cars would be available for $20,000 by 2004. :roll:

They are a sick shell game, and nothing more, used to placate the public, make them think the government and industry are actually trying to do somethnig about our oil consumption and pollution, and make them forget about one technology, so the auto industry can keep shelling out high profit ICE-powered cars instead of zero maintenance electric cars that last 30 years and over 500,000 miles. On top of that, the industry gets to rake in an ever increasing amount of our hard-earned tax dollars courtesy of Uncle Scam, without even needing to have available for consumption a working product. Many just pocket large chunks of that money to fatten their profit margins.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Unread postby MicroHydro » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 15:58:58

On the other hand this nonsense is good for platinum futures :-D
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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Unread postby geoman » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 16:20:10

It is a marketing ploy for Honda. Saw the 1 page ad in the LA Times at lunch today.
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Unread postby crude_intentions » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 16:29:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')on't say "fuel cell car" say FreedomCar

http://www.uscar.org/freedomcar/

or is that FreeDumbCar?


The Freedom Car? :shock:
Oh for the love of god this hyper-patriotism crap is about to make me sick. Whats Next are they gonna rename the Electric chair the Liberty Couch.
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 17:28:28

OK people that's it, if you run biodiesel sometime tell ppl it's a freedom car running on freedom-fry grease lol!!

I bought another vehicle yesterday, can't have enough!! Umpteen miles per gallon, onboard computer, it's a beauty!! I can even beat Priuses off the line, it rocks!

Old Schwinn Cimmeron, sort of a hybrid mountain bike, one of the last US made butted frames, $225. Guy told me if I wait a few years it will be a collector's item but I said I just got it to ride, gonna set it up with panniers or something.
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