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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Speculators Thread pt 2 (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Carlhole » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 16:06:43

F. William Engdahl, Oil Geopolitics

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]“We are in the Midst of an Epochal Tectonic Shift”
Given the fact, that the oil price attracts strong attention these days, it is more than just fitting to have a detailed conversation with one of the most prominent observers of the “black gold” business: F. William Engdahl. In the following exclusive interview, he discussed his views on the current oil price, the history of the oil interests in the 20th Century, the true aims of the "War on Terror," and last but not least Peak Oil. - By Lars Schall

Mr. Engdahl, is the oil price by and large driven by massive speculation?

Mike Norman, the Chief Economist at the Wall Street firm John Thomas Financial, wrote to me in October of last year for example:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mike Norman', 'T')otal NYMEX open interest in crude is 1.4 m contracts or about 1.4 billion barrels of crude. Daily volume
of crude traded on NYMEX i over 1 billion barrels per day. Total daily global demand is only 83 million barrels per day. The amount traded on one single exchange is more than 10 times total daily consumption. It‘s a giant casino with prices being driven up by speculators and consumers having to pay more and more.“i

What‘s your opinion on that?

FWE: I wrote back in the 2008 period, when oil briefly spiked-up to $ 147 per barrel and Goldman Sachs was issuing client-advisories that it was going quickly to $ 200, and when JP Morgan was advising the Chinese government that China ‘buy all the physical crude you can get your hands on because it is going to $ 200,‘ at that point I wrote that roughly 60-70% of the price of oil then was pure speculation, manipulated by the GSCI, the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index. It‘s a perfect scenario that they have created on Wall Street to control the oil price irrespective of supply and demand.ii I would just add that the crucial ingredient these days is not the NYMEX for the global oil price benchmark, but the ICE Futures in London.

Why do I say that?

Because the ICE Futures is a daughter company of the International Commodity Exchange of Atlanta in Georgia, owned by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase etc. - the big oil banks that benefit enormously from the inside. There is absolutely no serious regulation of the ICE Futures. The British keep their hands off it, and the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the CFTC, since 2006 under the “Commodity Modernization Act of 2000“ allows ICE Futures to trade energy futures without disclosure to CFTC in the U.S. Market through London. So, in fact, it has deregulated and taken away from any government supervisory role the entire trade in energy futures, especially oil.

This is a rigged game. All you need now is a plausible event like this madman Gaddafi going berserk, or even a CNN perception of such, to then kick-off a snowball effect in the futures markets. These games are not sustainable over a ten year time, of course. Eventually it has to come back to supply and demand on some level, but the reality is that this is pure price and perception manipulation right now.

How much is the current upward movement of the oil price connected to the turmoil in the Middle East?

FWE: Well, the upward movement in the oil price began well before Christmas. The hegde funds and banks, who control and own the NYMEX, the ICE Futures and the Dubai Exchange, are using the Middle East events. I think they want to try to use that to push the price up to maybe $150 to $200 per barrel over the next months. And why? In order to put massive political pressure on Germany and the European Union. Why they want to do that is of course a different question. But ultimately pressure on the emerging giant, China which is beginning to act more independent than some in Washington would wish.


I don't know the exact date of this interview, but it is very recent.

Engdahl was right about the market in 2008.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Carlhole » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 16:15:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think this is all part of a very complex and long-time planned replay of the U.S. Oil shocks of the
1970‘s, with the goal in mind of maintaining not just U.S. Control over the oil markets, but over the
global economies‘ development. Too many countries since September 2001 begin to explore finding
solutions outside dependency on Washington. I know from direct discussions with leading people
throughout the traditionally “pro-American“ Arab OPEC countries, that they are fed up to here with
Washington and its heavy handed demands on them, with their military bases, with their attempts to
bring war against Iran and cause constant turmoil. They are looking to Europe, they are looking to
Russia, they are looking to China, there is all kinds of cross flux and activity going on in these countries. I
think that is the reason why the whole chessboard in the Middle East is being thrown up in the air by
Washington right now. Whether that means that Saudi Arabia has the oil or not, there is no reliable
source of information that says yes or no that I know of, certainly not that Swiss report the oil traders
always cite.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby thuja » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 17:22:35

In other words...look away people. The normal price of oil is 30 $/gallon..forever. It's just...goldman sachs, al qaida, saudis, liberals, insert bogeyman here, that are driving oil up. Without them gas would cost a dollar a gallon...for the next thousand years...bwa ha ha ha ha!
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 17:52:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kildred590', '
')The Saudis have no great love of Mubarak...


Says you. The Saudis, the CIA and folks in the media who cover this subject and actually know something about it say something different.

The Saudis supported Mubarak, opposed Obama turfing him out

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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 17:01:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'I')n other words...look away people. The normal price of oil is 30 $/gallon..forever. It's just...goldman sachs, al qaida, saudis, liberals, insert bogeyman here, that are driving oil up. Without them gas would cost a dollar a gallon...for the next thousand years...bwa ha ha ha ha!


Straw man again. Endless straw man arguments because people fail to listen to the other side.

The "normal price" of oil is where it was before it spiked, which was between $85-90. NOT $30!

There is this endless binary thinking where peakers feel they absolutely must dig in their heels and say "this is the big one" due to geology else they are falling into the denialist camp. The reality is that oil has been in the upper thresholds of tolerability to the world economy for quite some time and that's where it should naturally be if not for speculation (and dollar weakness). That doesn't mean depletion isn't happening. It just doesn't mean we're on the verge of Mad Max either.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Lore » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 18:27:54

Once again, speculation is the market. When you're bumping up against the margins of supply, that's what happens. You cannot control a commodity that is traded all over the world unless you singularly control the totality of the world market. The price is what it is, because that's what the global market has set it at. It's really as simple as that.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby thuja » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 20:35:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'I')n other words...look away people. The normal price of oil is 30 $/gallon..forever. It's just...goldman sachs, al qaida, saudis, liberals, insert bogeyman here, that are driving oil up. Without them gas would cost a dollar a gallon...for the next thousand years...bwa ha ha ha ha!


Straw man again. Endless straw man arguments because people fail to listen to the other side.

The "normal price" of oil is where it was before it spiked, which was between $85-90. NOT $30!

There is this endless binary thinking where peakers feel they absolutely must dig in their heels and say "this is the big one" due to geology else they are falling into the denialist camp. The reality is that oil has been in the upper thresholds of tolerability to the world economy for quite some time and that's where it should naturally be if not for speculation (and dollar weakness). That doesn't mean depletion isn't happening. It just doesn't mean we're on the verge of Mad Max either.


No strawman at all. I was responding directly to the Engdhal piece that said that "60-70%" of the price of oil is due to speculation. That is...utter crap. And you know it. As I have said before, speculation affects the short term oscilations but we are on a long term bull where the price of oil has risen from the teens to above 100 over the last decade. That's on average...not just taking in spikes.

Thatr is almost entirely due to...the plateauing of world oil production in concert with voracious and unrelenting global demand (even in the midst of an enormous global economic meltdown.) Yes other factors are at play...geopolitics, US currency devaluation, speculation, etc. But they play only a minor role in this bull. The underlying story is...peak oil.

No more 60-70 % of this is speculation. Bollocks! Thats a game politicians are playing so that we don't see what's truly happening...
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 21:12:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s I have said before, speculation affects the short term oscilations but we are on a long term bull where the price of oil has risen from the teens to above 100 over the last decade. That's on average...not just taking in spikes.


This is a misleading statement. If you look at the chart posted on the previous page the real price of oil over the past couple of decades is largely the same as it was during the eighties.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 21:38:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s I have said before, speculation affects the short term oscilations but we are on a long term bull where the price of oil has risen from the teens to above 100 over the last decade. That's on average...not just taking in spikes.


This is a misleading statement. If you look at the chart posted on the previous page the real price of oil over the past couple of decades is largely the same as it was during the eighties.


Rock, the time scale on your chart is so big it's hard to tell where the current price is on your chart. Does it include WTI/BRENT averaging about $120 recently?

If not, it looks to me like recent prices are at about the TOP of the range (excluding the summer 2008 spike) since the OPEC mess started in the 70's.

And even if so -- it's still pretty close.

And, it is (IMO) undeniable that in the past decade, with the real long term problem -- Chindia demand -- really chugging into gear, that the price TREND has been SOLIDLY upward in real terms.

Now, no one can say what the future will hold. But I don't see the 3 billion plus, upwardly mobile, car desiring, rapidly multiplying folks in the third world going away and deciding to forego transportation fuels.

Next to that, all the green tech, first world half-baked incentives, etc. are NOT looking promising to keep up for the next 15 years or so, unless I'm missing something.

In 30 years, we may be back to pre-70's OPEC crisis energy pricing -- the tricky part is getting from here to there without drowning in debt that literally reduces the first world to third world status.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby thuja » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 22:31:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s I have said before, speculation affects the short term oscilations but we are on a long term bull where the price of oil has risen from the teens to above 100 over the last decade. That's on average...not just taking in spikes.


This is a misleading statement. If you look at the chart posted on the previous page the real price of oil over the past couple of decades is largely the same as it was during the eighties.


Misleading? Study your own chart 86-99. Then see what happened afterwards. Now tell me why that happened...
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 21 Apr 2011, 22:37:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')isleading? Study your own chart 86-99. Then see what happened afterwards. Now tell me why that happened...



well lets see Saudis got caught not expecting a increase in demand from the Asian market?
OK...and the reason for the high prices earlier was?
The point here is no one is arguing that oil is not a limited commodity. The issue is you can't argue that there is some long term trend of depletion showing up in the pricing. It isn't there. It is spikey and you can argue that the spikes have a reason unrelated to a gradual depletion of ultimate recoverable reserves
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 00:52:55

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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 01:25:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '[')url=http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/print/Epochal%20Tectonic%20Shift.pdf]F. William Engdahl, Oil Geopolitics[/url]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]“We are in the Midst of an Epochal Tectonic Shift”
Given the fact, that the oil price attracts strong attention these days, it is more than just fitting to have a detailed conversation with one of the most prominent observers of the “black gold” business: F. William Engdahl. In the following exclusive interview, he discussed his views on the current oil price, the history of the oil interests in the 20th Century, the true aims of the "War on Terror," and last but not least Peak Oil. - By Lars Schall

Mr. Engdahl, is the oil price by and large driven by massive speculation?


Whether you disagree or agree with Mr. Engdahl, you have to admit that some very complex geopolitics accompanies any analysis of the oil market.

Seems clear to me that the world is being sewn up into a single economic unit - a predictable occurrence given the record of standardization all through the industrial revolution. The control of petroleum resources would be a necessary battle on that road to unification. Such a thing is inevitable anyway given the huge population pressures, instantaneous global communications, and the increasingly rapid advances in all the Sciences.

I could probably find some chart/graphs that show actual global increases in automation. This is something that is easily quantifiable. ...and it's a steep growth curve. It's not showing any negative effects from the constraint of natural resources like oil. Generally, if the price of oil stays high, this is a strong pressure for businesses to adopt even more automation. There's no sign of a slowing of this trend; in the IT world, the trend upwards is exponential, with a steep upwards trends in robotics too.

I'm reading a book right now called, The Lights In The Tunnel: Automation, Accelerating Technology and the Economy of the Future

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5').0 out of 5 stars AUTOMATION CHANGES EVERYTHING, December 2, 2009
By W. Sheridan "Epistemological Entrepreneur" (Ottawa, Canada)

When manufacturing automation produced the Great Depression there were forecasts that the Price System was doomed because the income from jobs was what provided purchasing power for the mass market. But instead of collapse, a transition was begun whereby the labour market was shifted from manufacturing employment to service employment.

But in The Industrialization of Intelligence, Noah Kennedy warned us that the same processes that had eliminated jobs in manufacturing would eventually be applied to intellectual work. Martin Ford is now announcing that we are very close to massive layoffs amongst Knowledge Workers because everything from inventory re-stocking, to legal research, to medical diagnostics, will be progressively automated as well.

No jobs means no pay cheques, so a decline of 30% in the size of the workforce will bring ruin to both ordinary consumers and mass marketing. Declining sales means declining profits, and that leads to declining investments and declining innovation. The market will not be able to shift sufficient employment to any other sector to recreate jobs. Market-financed automation will undermine the incomes of virtually everyone.

It's time to rethink the way income is distributed as well as the lifestyles that consumers lead. If economic productivity is taxed at the same rate as previous labour costs, transfer payments can then be established to provide income to otherwise unemployed consumers. These transfers should be enough to cover the basics: food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment, transportation, education, and entertainment. There is literally no other way to get purchasing power into the hands of consumers.

To keep people motivated to continue "behaving themselves," the transfer rates could be tied to incentives for responsible and creative lifestyles. More education would result in a somewhat higher transfer payment, as would volunteer work, and other helpful and creative endeavours. These are some of Mr. Ford's suggestions, and they are all very carefully thought out and presented. Since we will all be impacted by the continuing process of automation, we all need to read this book, and engage in conversation regarding how and when such steps need to be taken.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Arthur75 » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 01:50:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '[')url=http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/print/Epochal%20Tectonic%20Shift.pdf]F. William Engdahl, Oil Geopolitics[/url]



In the above article :

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') was informed 15 years ago in Washington DC by an insider that the US satelite and other intelligence had confirmed the presence of enough oil just alone in the disputed territory between Saudi Arabia and Yemen to feed the entire world appetite for crude oil over the next 50 years –


I stopped there, and yet another article showing that all this "speculators fault" theory basically comes from airheads and charlatans (a bit like the singularity stuff or R Gage truther thing :) )
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby sjn » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 05:28:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s I have said before, speculation affects the short term oscilations but we are on a long term bull where the price of oil has risen from the teens to above 100 over the last decade. That's on average...not just taking in spikes.


This is a misleading statement. If you look at the chart posted on the previous page the real price of oil over the past couple of decades is largely the same as it was during the eighties.

rockdoc, in my opinion it's a mistake to assume US$ inflation is separate from oil supply, there is a complex interrelationship between oil prices and the value of the dollar. Even if you only consider the Energy Intensity (oil consumption per $ of GDP) in the global economy, it's clear that to maintain the apparent growth in world GDP in the face of non-growing (or declining) oil supplies something must have changed. Each unit of oil now must produce ever more productivity, but if economic activities here in the UK are anything to go by, this is achieved through financial innovation not producing goods more efficiently. The value of the dollar is linked to the global oil market such that the purchasing power [utility] of the dollar is proportional to the oil available to buy on the world market, this has been the case since Nixon took the US off the Gold Standard in instituted the PetroDollar system, this is why it's such big news China withdrawing it's crude from the world market.

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(from http://blog.maxdunn.com/articles/2009/03/09/peak-oil-in-2012)
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 10:29:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'T')he price is what it is, because that's what the global market has set it at. It's really as simple as that.


Then we will continue to suffer boom and bust cycles like it's the late 19th century.
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Re: Peak Oil vs. Speculation

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 11:21:13

Of course speculators and huge money flows can distort a market! It's always been that way. It's typically very difficult to sway a market that is as huge as oil but its what we are seeing now.

Forbes: Spiking Oil Prices: It’s The Investors, Stupid

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has been years since STRATFOR included oil-price forecasts in our work. At first glance, this seems odd. What happens with the price of oil is critical to the functioning of the international system. High energy prices stabilize and embolden exporting states like Russia, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela while hampering importing states such as South Korea, Kyrgyzstan and Spain.

Understanding where prices are going is critical to our work, and STRATFOR’s insights into regional economics and politics seems to position us well for interpreting supply and demand. In the past, such insights allowed us to accurately predict major price swings such as those linked to the price crash shortly after the 9/11 attacks. Considering that in recent months commodity prices have risen sharply — oil is now heading above $120 a barrel — it seems that STRATFOR would have a vested interest in resuming its oil-price projections.

The reason STRATFOR no longer predicts oil prices is because supply, demand and geopolitical risks are no longer reliable tools for predicting commodity prices, and haven’t been since the early 2000s. At that time, two major trends converged and altered financial and commodity markets.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') decade ago, a price swing of more than a percent or two would mean something significant had occurred in the international environment. Since 2008, price swings of 4 percent or more, largely disconnected from supply and demand fundamentals, have become so common that they no longer signify some external event causing the shift. In STRATFOR’s opinion, investors’ collective activities are now the primary drivers of oil pricing, more critical than anything that happens in Saudi Arabia
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