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What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 22 Mar 2011, 22:14:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he Great Lord Humungas can be dispatched rather easily and at low cost. I fear no man. I fear the tyrant that shrouds himself in the legality of his office and comes after you with the full force of government.


That's exactly what the ineffectual rebels in Libya are saying.

Not quite as ineffectual if the rumor of a suicide jet bomber killing Khamis Gaddafi is true or that overweight, diabetic middle-manager who drove a car full of propane cannisters into the front gates of a military base near Benghazi.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Lore » Tue 22 Mar 2011, 22:23:21

I would like to believe that, but more likely wishful thinking. Again, 40 years of the tyrant Muammar al-Gaddafi is a good lesson of how long cleverly insane people can stay in power.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 09:09:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'I')f the local tyrant cannot call on unlimited reserves, then he has to rule by the will of the local majority. We could have real problems with the dictatorship of the majority. But, if he got too far out of hand he could be easily reigned in. The bully in Defiance comes to mind.


You should write Conan novels instead of engaging in political discourse. I mean really. Your romantic notion of local warlords being so trivial to "dispatch" rather than your boogeyman federal jack-boot-thugs is really a fantasy.

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 10:46:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '.').. 40 years of the tyrant Muammar al-Gaddafi is a good lesson of how long cleverly insane people can stay in power.


Look at the Castro brothers....they've stayed in power for 51 years. 8)
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 10:52:23

an much of Cuba is in prestine condition due to anti-capitalism.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 20:18:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'T')o be replaced by the Great Lord Humungus, “the ayatollah of rock-and-rollah"! I'd be careful what you ask for.


Quiz for the day, which is more likely:

And the Lord Humungus said, "Grab your guns, and lets rehabilitate them heathens!"

or:

And the Lord Humungus said, "Lets have tofu and steamed broccoli for lunch, shall we?"

There's a reason the country clubbers hitch themselves to the lunnies on the right instead of the lunnies on the left... [nb... Lord Humungas got his MBA at Yale.]

Just kidding, sorta. Just had this funny image of Lord Humungus before the Apocalypse as a construction supervisor, riding around in his F350 office-on-wheels, taking names and making people miserable! LOL.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 20:37:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'M')os.. I have no trouble being a Republican and accepting the evidence concerning global climate change.

You are by far an exception. An outlier. And I'm sure you know that.


I'm an outlier, in that I am willing to write that statement. Mostly because I'm more an analyst / observer than someone interested in seeking office or appointment.

The rabble on the right likes to heckle GCC as much as the rabble on the left love to blame every weather oddity on GCC. Both are beyond brain damaged when it comes to climate science, but what can you do.. talking about the unimaginably huge amount of energy involved in raising the average temperature of the ocean by 1C; just doesn't grab people's attention like The Day After Tomorrow nonsense or blaming a cold snap, heat wave, or hurricane strike location on GCC.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't see evidence supporting the notion that GOPers or other conservatives understand the full implications of what 6+ billion people living like Americans actually means in terms of energy supply. Actually, zero evidence.


Are you sure? Could it be that you don't see the GOP selecting your preferred policy objectives with regard to PO and GCC. The GOP effective position of consuming the globally greatest per capita share of oil as possible, while lengthening and flattening the baseline production curve of US reserves is *exactly* what a GOP response to PO&GCC would look like. Which do you think is more important to a GOP style response, carbon taxes, or preferential treatment and protection of Monsanto and other GM seed producers? Do Republicans support or oppose most nuclear and coal generation? Do Democrats?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Cloud9 » Wed 23 Mar 2011, 21:04:26

Mos I much prefer the John Carter of Mars series for adolescent entertainment. Better guns.

It amazes me that the left can feel so warm and snug in the arms of the state while deluding themselves that all of the excesses perpetrated by the state never happened. Why do you trust some bureaucrat to look after your interest? Where were the bureaucrats when Wall Street bankrupted the country? I have worked for government for over forty years. I worked for ten years in one of the most Byzantine bureaucracies on the planet. I know what I am talking about.

Through tax or fine or imminent domain the current system can impoverish you and put you on the street. Or better yet they can put you in jail. You have a much better chance thwarting the local thug than you do thwarting government.

Google fiery standoff and see how many hits you get.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 09:27:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')Why do you trust some bureaucrat to look after your interest?


Why do you trust the invisible hand of the market?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')Where were the bureaucrats when Wall Street bankrupted the country?


And you want government to stand down and deregulate even MORE? That's what the tea-party want to do, gut the EPA, etc...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')You have a much better chance thwarting the local thug than you do thwarting government.


I can "thwart" government very easily, with one of these.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby DomusAlbion » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 09:45:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')You have a much better chance thwarting the local thug than you do thwarting government.


I can "thwart" government very easily, with one of these.


Ha, what a joke! You may be able to change your legislators with your ballot but the bureaucratic institutions, the one’s that really run the various governments remain and resist change or a loss of power. They remain to plague the people with their 10,000 page books of conflicting regulations that allow them to levy, fine and confiscate and leave most citizens no recourse to fight legally because of the high costs of going to the courts.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 09:48:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'Y')ou have a much better chance thwarting the local thug than you do thwarting government.

How is JP Morgan, Monsanto, Wallmart or Goldman Sachs the local thug?

The problem isn't government. The problem isn't companies. The problem isn't trade unions. The problem is when anyone of the above groups gets too much power, it skews the amount of leverage they can hold over the other groups so everyone suffers. You need a distribution of power with independent groups whose insentives align with what is best for everyone.

Removing power from government hands more power to the corporations who don't even pretend to be working in the interests of the general public. You need the government to start acting for the people, not corporations, because that's why the government didn't do anything to stop Wall Street bankrupting the country.

How can a free market work when it is cheaper and more profitable to commit human rights abuses followed by an advertising and disinformation campaign, than to do the right thing in the first place?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 11:40:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '
')How can a free market work when it is cheaper and more profitable to commit human rights abuses followed by an advertising and disinformation campaign, than to do the right thing in the first place?


This is the classic 19th century Marxist argument that evil capitalists will turn everyone else into penniless abused serfs chained to machines in their factories.

For various reasons it mostly hasn't turned out that way.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 11:51:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')This is the classic 19th century Marxist argument that evil capitalists will turn everyone else into penniless abused serfs chained to machines in their factories.

For various reasons it mostly hasn't turned out that way.

Not in America or the UK, and not yet. Try saying the same thing about the factories in third world countries. So are the captains of industry massive racists turning only third worlders into slaves, or would they like to do the same thing to everyone given the chance?

The only reason it hasn't gotten quite that far is the people here still have some power, but as the population and number of people increase, putting a downward pressure on wages for the few available jobs left that haven't been exported to serfs, that power and wealth is reducing.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 12:38:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')This is the classic 19th century Marxist argument that evil capitalists will turn everyone else into penniless abused serfs chained to machines in their factories.

For various reasons it mostly hasn't turned out that way.

Not in America or the UK, and not yet. Try saying the same thing about the factories in third world countries. So are the captains of industry massive racists turning only third worlders into slaves


Have you ever actually travelled to the "third world"? In particular, have you ever been to China?

The factories in China are making the Chinese rich.

Your 19th century Marxist fantasies about "captains of industry" making factory workers into "slaves" are silly. People who work in factories in third world countries like China aren't slaves----in fact, they are becoming a new affluent middle class. Look at car purchases and house purchases in China---they now exceed the US.

This isn't the 1830s anymore. Karl Marx's vision of factory workers being slaves hasn't come to pass. Karl Marx never envisioned an affluent China filled with factories producing an affluent middle class of former Chinese peasants who can now buy motorscooters, cars and ipods----the real world of the 21st century is different from the world of 200 years ago that formed Marx's views.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 12:53:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')The factories in China are making the Chinese rich.


And killing their health and the carrying capacity of the biosphere in a faustian bargain. The gilded age of China that everyone awaits with awe and trepidation will be very brief and carry with it a terrible pricetag. If you don't see that, I don't know why the hell you're here.

Did you visit any of these wonderfully polluted places while you were on your business trip to China, Planty? Maybe talk to the locals dying of cancer about how great China's rise is to people's quality of life? I doubt it.

It's all about bling. Gee, look, they are starting to have copycat suburbs now! Look at the cars! So shallow.

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 13:24:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')The factories in China are making the Chinese rich.

Karl Marx's vision of factory workers being slaves hasn't come to pass.

Which Chinese are getting rich? Managers and owners or the people on minimum wage of $140 a month compared to the $300 required to meet basic needs. Or is it the 13 people who tried to kill themselves at the same factory in a 5 month period? Sounds like paradise. Well as long as people running the factories are getting rich it's ok to abuse the workers then isn't it. And congratulations for highlighting just how easy it is to hide human rights abuses abroad, and how it is clearly much cheaper than doing the right thing, which was my initial point. The only place factory workers becoming slaves hasn't come to pass, is in people's heads that are buried in the sand.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun20 ... -j03.shtml

Or how about this link (to a blog admittedly, but apparently of a radio host) showing numerous other abuses, including people in Jordan being paid 2 cents an hour. Please tell me how that isn't slavery?
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2009/10/f ... bally.html

And human rights abuses aren't just working conditions even if that is what you assumed I was talking about. Look at the monumental amounts of pollution affecting everyone in China who are powerless to stop it. But as long as we don't have to pay the costs and some poor people suffer then that is ok. The free market ignores negative externalities wherever it can, and I'd love to see you try and argue against that.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 13:53:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')our 19th century Marxist fantasies about "captains of industry" making factory workers into "slaves" are silly. People who work in factories in third world countries like China aren't slaves----in fact, they are becoming a new affluent middle class. Look at car purchases and house purchases in China---they now exceed the US.


The issue is debatable. Yes, the peasants are out of the fields and away from the backward rural villages. BUT.. a lot of them are miserable. There are some good things about rural, small village life. Conditions are very different in the cities.. some of these factories are massive with all the workers sleeping in dorms -- not much different from a prison camp.

Suicides have been a problem. I think it was Apple that had that string of suicides with one of their suppliers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his isn't the 1830s anymore. Karl Marx's vision of factory workers being slaves hasn't come to pass. Karl Marx never envisioned an affluent China filled with factories producing an affluent middle class of former Chinese peasants who can now buy motorscooters, cars and ipods----the real world of the 21st century is different from the world of 200 years ago that formed Marx's views.


You've been to China, I haven't. Maybe you're right. All I know is, from the articles I read, the pictures I see, the documentaries and Chinese cinema I've seen.. they don't look affluent to me. Most of them look dirt poor, just the backdrop has changed -- farm and village replaced by factory and dormitory.

EDIT: See Mos, I don't always agree with Plant. :razz:
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 14:57:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')The factories in China are making the Chinese rich.


The gilded age of China that everyone awaits with awe and trepidation will be very brief and carry with it a terrible pricetag.


Of course it will.

Just like the gilded age of Europe and America will be very brief and carry a terrible price tag.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that people ---whether they are in China or Massachusetts---- are short-sighted and would rather be rich than poor. Why not face facts instead of indulging in 19th century Marxist fantasies about enslaved factory workers---- right now, the factories in China are bringing tens of millions of Chinese into the middle class while making significant numbers of Chinese folks rich.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Lore » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 15:36:33

A vast middle class comparable to Western civilization among the Chinese population is an illusionary dream. It will get ugly when they finally realize it.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 24 Mar 2011, 19:32:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Nonetheless, the fact remains that people ---whether they are in China or Massachusetts---- are short-sighted and would rather be rich than poor.


Exactly. Which kind of brings us back to the topic of this thread. Right-wingers being short-sighted and wanting to take what they can get while they can without considering the long-term consequences to the environment or energy availability, and how this clashes with doomerism.

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