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What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Loki » Wed 16 Mar 2011, 15:02:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'B')ack to the garlic question, wow Loki, that's impressive.

Yeah, it's a lot of frickin' garlic. Weeding a half mile of garlic wasn't all that much fun.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot the socialism argument however, they have to compete with other non socialistic systems, would they function otherwise?

The publicly owned power system here in the PNW does compete with private businesses---there are quite a few private power companies in this region. When I lived in Portland I got power from a private company (PGE), now that I live in the country I get it from a PUD. I see no difference in terms of service.

I've studied the federal hydropower system in this region in some pretty serious depth (wrote master's thesis on it), I think they're doing quite well financially. And it is pure socialism, public ownership of the means of production (fedgov owns the dams and the powerlines). Not saying it's necessarily a good thing, just saying that it does appear to be functional.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'W')ith respect to peak oil, I definitely believe in peak oil. I also very much understand how exponential growth works for consumption and thus you can't drill your way out of the problem. I also do not believe in the money/resource fairy. That is, in a constrained environment I don't believe that paying extra taxes or ceeding more control to the government will miracously make adequate resources appear for everyone. Simply, we appear to be heading for a time of shortages and self-reliance, in conjunction with your neighbors, is going to be the safest way to plan and proceed.

Well said Treefarmer, I agree completely. I particularly like the last sentence, I cut and pasted it into a file I've been keeping of my favorite preparedness quotes.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby EXSLOPER » Wed 16 Mar 2011, 15:15:50

Why does anyone care what draws the Right Wingers to the board? If they bug you don't respond to them... don't read their posts and don't waste your time with pointless threads like this one.

Seems like the Right Wingers are living in your head rent free.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Fishman » Wed 16 Mar 2011, 16:34:52

Loki, thanks for the garlic post. Good points on your part, I respectfully disagree.
"Why does anyone care what draws the Right Wingers to the board? " If drives mos, etc crazy that anyone could possibly disagree with their argument

"If they bug you don't respond to them... don't read their posts and don't waste your time with pointless threads like this one. " They can't. Moth/ flame analagy

"Seems like the Right Wingers are living in your head rent free." Yea, its great, feeling like leaving a compostable deposit right now.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby careinke » Wed 16 Mar 2011, 23:41:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')You mean like when Obama and the Nancy Pelosi Congress failed to pass any "cap and trade" bill to limit CO2 but did pass an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the rich?


And if Obama and the Nancy Pelosi Congress did pass "cap and trade" you'd be right here blasting them over how much it would kill the economy. With you it's damned if they do, damned if they don't, so why should I take any of your drivel as a serious engagement on policy matters?


So it is OK NOT to do something you promised because someone else will complain about it?? I guess that is probably why we still have the patriot act, GITMO, two wars, and no federal budget ....someone may have criticized him for doing what he said he would.

Oh I forgot....Sarah Palin would have done a worse job.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby rangerone314 » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 01:24:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', '.').. a little socialism is good. For example, I like having public roads.

TF


Public roads are infrastructure. Governments play a key role in directing and often constructing infrastructure development.


Public roads are not socialism. Virtually every society on earth developed enough to have cities---- since the first city formed 8000 years ago at Jericho--- has had public roads.

Ironically, one of the oldest and most basic functions of government (roads) is proving to be one that the various Federal, State & Local versions in this country are most incompetent at.

Why aren't budgets structured from top to bottom in order of priority of importance, and as the revenue streams fail, then the stuff at the bottom of least importance gets cut?

If my income got s**tcanned, I'd start with stuff like cable TV and mad money and work my way up... the gov't solution is to keep kicking the debt can down the road.

Should be interesting watching Japan cash in $900 billion dollars in Treasuries to pay for their rebuilding.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby rangerone314 » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 01:28:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')You mean like when Obama and the Nancy Pelosi Congress failed to pass any "cap and trade" bill to limit CO2 but did pass an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the rich?


And if Obama and the Nancy Pelosi Congress did pass "cap and trade" you'd be right here blasting them over how much it would kill the economy. With you it's damned if they do, damned if they don't, so why should I take any of your drivel as a serious engagement on policy matters?


So it is OK NOT to do something you promised because someone else will complain about it?? I guess that is probably why we still have the patriot act, GITMO, two wars, and no federal budget ....someone may have criticized him for doing what he said he would.

Oh I forgot....Sarah Palin would have done a worse job.

I *WOULD* push Sarah Palin out of bed for eating crackers or opening her stupid mouth, but at this point, I think a sock puppet with holes could do a better job than Obama.

In fact, my 12 year old or even any number of my illegitimate offspring could do a better job.

Instead of cap and trade I think a carbon tariff on countries that put out more greenhouse gases. If the 3rd world is unhappy with this, make it based on per capital output.

Obama is like Spock commanding, and we don't need Spock, we need a Captain Kirk.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby careinke » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 01:57:12

"I *WOULD* push Sarah Palin out of bed for eating crackers or opening her stupid mouth, but at this point, I think a sock puppet with holes could do a better job than Obama."

I don't know, I think she is kinda hot,in that sick demented white trash kind of way. :twisted:
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby mos6507 » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 11:13:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')So it is OK NOT to do something you promised


If you never wanted the guy to do what he promised to do, why complain that he's tilting your way? Would I be upset if Palin were president and decided NOT to drill, baby, drill and go green-tech just because she reneged on her promise? No. I'd be happy she was tilting my way. So the consistency argument is trumped by policy argument. Argue based on what you WANT them to do compared to what they're doing, not how consistent they are.

The problem with Planty is that his only objective is to attack Obama rather than to make some sort of concise policy stance. So every conceivable criticism is lobbed his way regardless of whether what he's doing matches whatever Planty's politics are (which is hard to deduce other than his past support for Palin).
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby mos6507 » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 11:20:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Obama is like Spock commanding, and we don't need Spock, we need a Captain Kirk.


Spock wasn't so bad. He sacrificed his life to save the Enterprise.

And Kirk, when faced with another no-win situation, sacrificed the Enterprise itself to save the crew.

That's what we're faced with in catabolic collapse. Deciding how to downsize, if not powerdown.

Unfortunately, those people aren't real, and there aren't any politicians out there you can point to who could fit into those iconic shoes. So you can bitch and moan about Obama all you want, but until you find someone else that people will be projecting superhero archetypes onto, he's all we've got.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby careinke » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 11:36:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')So it is OK NOT to do something you promised


If you never wanted the guy to do what he promised to do, why complain that he's tilting your way? Would I be upset if Palin were president and decided NOT to drill, baby, drill and go green-tech just because she reneged on her promise? No. I'd be happy she was tilting my way. So the consistency argument is trumped by policy argument. Argue based on what you WANT them to do compared to what they're doing, not how consistent they are.

The problem with Planty is that his only objective is to attack Obama rather than to make some sort of concise policy stance. So every conceivable criticism is lobbed his way regardless of whether what he's doing matches whatever Planty's politics are (which is hard to deduce other than his past support for Palin).


Actually if Obama managed to repeal the Patriot act, end the wars, close, GITMO, and get those slackers to pass a budget I WOULD BECOME A DEMOCRAT. He has done some things I support him for, most notably keeping us out of Lybia despite urgings from a former Dimocrat President.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Fishman » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 12:06:07

"he's all we've got." We are SO scre%%d.
But there's HOPE
And CHANGE
Coming in 2012
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Fishman » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 12:20:32

"Actually if Obama managed to repeal the Patriot act,(not going to happen)
"end the wars," (not going to happen)
"close GITMO", (not going to happen)
"and get those slackers to pass a budget"- the one the Democratic House and Senate was supposed to complete in 10/10
If these thing could take place with this presidient, I would like to be a unicorn, ...with a fluffy tail.

Ranger, you speak so disrespectively toward our president, are you a racist?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby WhatDoWeDoNow » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 15:51:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'E')verything's relative. ....Few people go around with Castro avatars.

No it isn't. Left and Right and Center are objectively defined. Just because the middle of the spectrum in the US is far to the right of center doesn't mean that everything to its left is "Left".

Please with the "Castro" reference. I identify myself as "Left" but that just means that I believe that government exists to better the lives of the majority of its people not just corporations and the wealthy. I have no admiration for much of anything Castro has done since 1962. You can have free education and free health care and freedom of speech and assembly.

When you look for examples of the "left" please stick to European style social democracy not totalitarian stalinism.

Surely you know this?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby americandream » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 15:54:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WhatDoWeDoNow', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'E')verything's relative. ....Few people go around with Castro avatars.

No it isn't. Left and Right and Center are objectively defined. Just because the middle of the spectrum in the US is far to the right of center doesn't mean that everything to its left is "Left".

Please with the "Castro" reference. I identify myself as "Left" but that just means that I believe that government exists to better the lives of the majority of its people not just corporations and the wealthy. I have no admiration for much of anything Castro has done since 1962. You can have free education and free health care and freedom of speech and assembly.

When you look for examples of the "left" please stick to European style social democracy not totalitarian stalinism.

Surely you know this?


Social democracy is no longer required with the demise of the USSR and will be gradually dismantled in Europe as demands for parity with labour costs in Asia see sd rules of engagement whittled away. Give it 10 years and much of what you take for granted will be gone.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby americandream » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 15:59:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', '.').. a little socialism is good. For example, I like having public roads.

TF


Public roads are infrastructure. Governments play a key role in directing and often constructing infrastructure development.


Public roads are not socialism. Virtually every society on earth developed enough to have cities---- since the first city formed 8000 years ago at Jericho--- has had public roads.


Socialism: socialised spending of social funding (taxes) on socialised services (as opposed to the private which incidentally gets a subsidy from the social for having conducted its business within the social which it invariably does not contribute to for having minimalised its tax contributions).

In the lalaland of the capitalist, why even my tax paid services are his to use as he pleases because he is an ENTREPRENUER. Of course, now a bit of a joke post bailout.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Ludi » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 17:52:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '
')The government can, should and used to exist for the majority of its people


I disagree. It should exist for all of its people.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Sixstrings » Thu 17 Mar 2011, 22:13:18

I've only been a Democrat for a few years, but here's some things I don't like as evidenced in this thread:

1) The elitism. My God, you guys are elitist. Do you have any idea how all that psycho-analyzing (attachment disorder, blah blah blah) sounds to independents / average working class folks? Sure maybe Republicans peddle a false American Dream, but at least they say anyone can take part. Whereas you guys are damning people from the crib (wire mesh monkey mothers? wtf?).

And God forbid anyone questions climate change, wow, I myself saw the fangs come out on that one. I even got told I'm going to Hell or something like that.

Strange thing is at least on this forum I've found conservatives, and cornies for that matter, to be far more polite. They never start threads to just trash liberals in general, rather they actually post about the issues (maybe they're wrong, but at least they're talking issues not "reacharounds" and attachment disorder wire monkey mothers).

One last note on the psycho-babble.. it's distastefully smug and elitist, it wins NOBODY over to your side, and besides you can find a disorder in the DSM to fit anybody.

So that's another thing about American liberals rubbing me the wrong way, it's like the Whole Foods scene and the green movement -- you're setting up a clique where an ivory tower / hipster minority can feel smug and superior. That's not what being a Democrat should be about, Democrats should be the party of the working man.

2) I forgot my other points, I'll read some more of the wall of text in this thread and see if I remember.

EDIT: I read most of the thread.. saw a couple over the line comments from conservatives, but you really provoked them the way you started the thread out.

To answer Mos's original question.. I see no contradiction between being a doomer and a conservative. Conservatives (in theory anyway) want small government, you have to admit that fits in with collapse.

My political views have more to do with what kind of society we have between now and collapse -- post collapse, I know all that goes out the window.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby Plantagenet » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 03:21:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')So it is OK NOT to do something you promised


If you never wanted the guy to do what he promised to do, why complain that he's tilting your way?


The problem with Mossie's argumehat is that its wrong to suggest that it doesn't matter whether or not Obama flip flops and switches positions on every issue because the President's job is to lead.

Obama is failing as a leader.

Obama has flip-flopped on many many issues, but lets just take one example. Obama spent the whole 2010 campaign season vowing never to extend the Bush tax cuts and then immediately extended the Bush tax cuts after the election. Obama showed himself to be a weak, lying, political coward who has absolutely no integrity or personal grit------and thats exactly the kind of failed leadership our country doesn't need right now. We've got serious problems, including peak oil, and we need a serious president with the intelligence to understand the issues and the grit to address the issues. 8)
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby rangerone314 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 05:56:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', '&')quot;Actually if Obama managed to repeal the Patriot act,(not going to happen)
"end the wars," (not going to happen)
"close GITMO", (not going to happen)
"and get those slackers to pass a budget"- the one the Democratic House and Senate was supposed to complete in 10/10
If these thing could take place with this presidient, I would like to be a unicorn, ...with a fluffy tail.

Ranger, you speak so disrespectively toward our president, are you a racist?

Wow, race-card played. Must have run out of aces and face cards.

In times like this, you need an FDR or a Winston Churchill or a Ronald Reagan even (despite even their imperfections). We need decisive leadership not a waffler. Obama would make a good ambassador or maybe a VP.

Ironically, GWB seemed to realize this and made the attempt but he simply lacked the skillset. Obama's innate skillset seems suited more for a courtroom or a science laboratory or as a community organizer, not as the Commander-in-Chief.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Postby mos6507 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 09:03:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')In times like this, you need an FDR or a Winston Churchill or a Ronald Reagan even


Don't sit there telling us how democracy should work when you don't even vote.
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