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What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Umber » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 12:12:24

Obama has at least proven wrong those people who claimed he was only an empty suit. He has shown conclusively that he’s a suit wrapped around a quivering mixture of horse shite and jello.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby ian807 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 12:35:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')1) The elitism. My God, you guys are elitist. Do you have any idea how all that psycho-analyzing (attachment disorder, blah blah blah) sounds to independents / average working class folks? Sure maybe Republicans peddle a false American Dream, but at least they say anyone can take part. Whereas you guys are damning people from the crib (wire mesh monkey mothers? wtf?).

Actually, I know exactly how it sounds. I grew up around average working class folks in a small rural town of about 3000 people.

So here's the deal. I *am* smarter than most of them. I have a college education with a degree in psychology and not the Freudian BS either. I read extensively about a wide variety of subjects from anthropology to complex systems analysis. I make a comfortable 6 figure salary designing coding and implementing software and systems.

So what would you have me do? Pretend to be "one of the good ole' boys" so that they feel better about themselves? Pander to that crowd when I speak? Self-censor? Isn't that just the conservative form of "political correctness?"

I speak honestly. I call BS as I see it, whether it's in liberal or conservative form. Conservatives have been producing more of that lately so more criticism flows in their direction.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Strange thing is at least on this forum I've found conservatives, and cornies for that matter, to be far more polite. They never start threads to just trash liberals in general, rather they actually post about the issues (maybe they're wrong, but at least they're talking issues not "reacharounds" and attachment disorder wire monkey mothers).

I think perhaps you're reading very selectively, or you haven't been very active on this board.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')One last note on the psycho-babble.. it's distastefully smug and elitist, it wins NOBODY over to your side, and besides you can find a disorder in the DSM to fit anybody.

Rational discourse about psychology doesn't happen much because, contrary to popular belief, it's a mind-bogglingly complex subject. Most people don't know much about evolutionary psychology, neural networks, neurophysiology and so on. I don't know how you have a rational conversation about psychology without those fundamentals. Evolution defines most of our behavior, thoughts and feelings. Try discussing psychology with someone who doesn't believe in evolution. There's no exchange of ideas at that point. There's noise.

So, am I "elite" because I won't entertain creationism as a valid point of view any more than you would astrology?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'S')o that's another thing about American liberals rubbing me the wrong way, it's like the Whole Foods scene and the green movement -- you're setting up a clique where an ivory tower / hipster minority can feel smug and superior. That's not what being a Democrat should be about, Democrats should be the party of the working man.

There's certainly some of that in the green movement. For that matter, I meet people who feel smug because they feed the homeless. I don't like them particularly, but I'm glad they're handing out hard-boiled eggs to the guys under the bridge, even if they wear rubber gloves while they do it.

But here's the thing. Democrats used to support the working class. What has been the working class's response? You've pretty much nailed it in this post. Contempt. Self-destructive voting against their own self-interest. Hatred of those who would help them. So, tell me again why the Democrats should be the party of the working man? I think a lot of formerly idealistic, altruistic Democrats are frankly disgusted and I can't say I blame them.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 13:46:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', '
')But here's the thing. Democrats used to support the working class.


You mean, those old Democrats that are called Republicans now?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby TreeFarmer » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 14:14:13

I used to be a Republican but not any more, I'm a Libertarian now. Both the Democrats and the Republicans are working to destroy the country. They are nothing more than two sides of the same party or, as I like to phrase it, a two-headed dog with rabies. When you vote Democrat or Republican you are just picking which head you want to be bitten by.

It is sacry how accurate the following actually is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

TF
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Fishman » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 14:18:52

Ranger, no race card played, only sarcasm, my apologies. Well, seems the Brits see our beloved president the same way
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/235 ... n-history-

Who would have know?

And who will suffer the most from this president, other than the country of course, the Progressives, who placed everything on this man.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Ferretlover » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 15:02:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', ' ')who placed everything on this man.

That's the biggest problem of all: always expecting someone else to do what you (speaking figuratively) can't or are too lazy to do.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 15:21:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'I') used to be a Republican but not any more, I'm a Libertarian now.


I think you'll find that libertarianism, at least the flavor popularized by people like Ron Paul, has no good answers to limits to growth either.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 15:50:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I think you'll find that libertarianism, at least the flavor popularized by people like Ron Paul, has no good answers to limits to growth either.



They sort of seem to address the issue of resources somewhat in the party platform:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2').2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.


http://www.lp.org/platform

Emphasis added.

Supporting individual rights to land, air, water, and wildlife and keeping government out of resource management would certainly curtail a lot of current practices such as large-scale mining of coal and uranium, gas fracking, large hydroelectric projects, coal-powered and nuclear electric plants, etc, possibly even large-scale industrial farming. It would almost certainly result in much smaller-scale, localized economies with very few if any massive projects. It would be interesting to see how effective social pressure might be in limiting large-scale private destructive practices, if any were still attempted once government subsidies had been eliminated. :?:
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 16:05:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'S')o here's the deal. I *am* smarter than most of them.


Fair enough, but you've just proved my point.

But, for Democrats who want to see their party win elections and actually carry out an agenda that looks something like liberalism... elitism just isn't the way to win anybody over.

It's possible to be intelligent, well educated and well read, and yet non-elitist. Indeed, having the cognitive flexibility for empathy and understanding the other side is indicative of high intelligence.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Cloud9 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 17:08:21

The smartest guy I ever worked for was responsible for air traffic over Vietnam in the late 1960’s. Truly a brilliant guy. He made very few mistakes. When he did, it was a whopper. His problem, he had no experience in changing course. Us lesser mortals that make frequent mistakes are comfortable with frequent course corrections. When it isn’t working out like we thought it would, we quickly reexamined our premise. With him, regardless of the feed back it was simply a matter of maintaining course, right up until the moment we went over the cliff.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 18:00:35

Wisconsin's governor Walker is being touted as a 2012 presidential pick. Hey the guy has 2 months work experience, and he's a college dropout.

Given the way GOP candidates are becoming like antiscience Khmer Rogue, is it a matter of time before having a college degree is a liability for Republicans?
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby ian807 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 18:15:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'S')o here's the deal. I *am* smarter than most of them.


Fair enough, but you've just proved my point.

Respectfully disagree. It's just a fact. I'm fully aware that it's just luck of the genetic draw and for that reason it's nothing to be ashamed of, or proud of.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'B')ut, for Democrats who want to see their party win elections and actually carry out an agenda that looks something like liberalism... elitism just isn't the way to win anybody over.


Again, I doubt this, starting with the fundamental premise. Look, back in the 70s, there were liberals and conservatives, but nobody was talking about the liberal elite. Back then, when you though conservative, you thought "Bill Buckley." Not exactly an example of the common man. The whole "liberal elite" thing still sounds phony to me, like another fox news big lie, repeated over and over until people believe it. It may be a great talking point, but I'm pretty sure that when my former hometown cohorts think "elite" they think of money, not politics. Those annoying whole foods shoppers have one thing in common. They can afford to shop there. Their defining characteristics are education and net worth, not political affiliation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')It's possible to be intelligent, well educated and well read, and yet non-elitist. Indeed, having the cognitive flexibility for empathy and understanding the other side is indicative of high intelligence.

Which describes most of the people I know who identify with the democratic AND republican party. The "liberal elite" thing just isn't what I see on the ground. Elite is about wealth, not politics.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 02:12:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'A')ctually, I know exactly how it sounds. I grew up around average working class folks in a small rural town of about 3000 people.

But here's the thing. Democrats used to support the working class. What has been the working class's response? You've pretty much nailed it in this post. Contempt. Self-destructive voting against their own self-interest. Hatred of those who would help them. So, tell me again why the Democrats should be the party of the working man? I think a lot of formerly idealistic, altruistic Democrats are frankly disgusted and I can't say I blame them.

I grew up in the Ironbound Section of Newark, NJ. It was a really blue-collar area. My grandmother and aunt were seamstresses; Dad was a longshoreman, and my cousin operates a crane. I liked to read, so I know the feeling.

I might be opening up a can of worms here, but there's a poster on Naked Captalism who has said that working class hatred of liberals began with the Civil Rights Movement. Who supports "those people" who are taking your jobs and living off of welfare? :?: Liberals (Democrats)" :x Considering the Nixon Souther Strategy was this idea made into a weapon against the Democrats, I think the poster-in-question hit the nail on the head.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 02:31:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oneaboveall', '.')..working class hatred of liberals began with the Civil Rights Movement. Who supports "those people" who are taking your jobs and living off of welfare? :?: Liberals (Democrats)"


The civil rights movement targeted mainly southern states controlled by democrats and big cities in the north controlled by democrats. The racist policies in those places were instituted by democrats in the 19th and early 20th century, and maintained by democrats up till the 1960s.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 04:38:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'I')'m fully aware that it's just luck of the genetic draw and for that reason it's nothing to be ashamed of, or proud of.


Well we're getting off topic here.. of course you're smart Ian, technically you're even an "elite" (by tax bracket anyhow), and that's all well and good -- heck, you're a decent guy anyway so why are we on about this.

The only elites I have a problem with are the "I got mine, screw you" crowd and then a recession / depression hits and some of those who thought they were elite suddenly find themselves 50 years old and unemployable.

It's the predatory hyper-competitive individualism in this country I don't like; we've become a use-it-up and throw-it-away nation, with ponzis, scams, and lies at all levels from the ground up. There's no truth anymore, only marketing. Churches have thrown real Christianity out the window and it's all about feel-good affirmation and prosperity gospel now.

We just don't have a sense of community anymore, or responsibility to a larger group other than our particular clique. This has been going on for a long time of course.. first the middle class fled the cities to the suburbs, now the suburbs are rotting and the middle class itself is decimated. So where will they run to now? Maybe we should stop running from problems and enact some sensible, workable socialism. That way everyone can go to the park with their family and enjoy themselves without having to look at the homeless and desperate loitering around.

Either we face these problems now or we become Mexico.. with ever fewer Americans able to afford guarded, walled and gated communities. Children will be begging on the streets, just as they do in Juarez.. that's where we're headed.

So if the liberals on this site want a more decent society just as I do, then give some thought to the elitism on our own side that's blocking any progress. You can't tell the poor and jobless you want to "help" them, then piss all over them with condescension. That's not the help people want -- they want an end to globalism, an end to offshoring and open borders / H1B immigration, they want a pro-American jobs policy. The American jobless aren't in such desperate straits because they're stupid, it's because the jobs were all shipped offshore and this country was sold out by the elites of both parties.

To tie this rant back in with elitism, look at this way -- the jobless aren't unemployed because they "cling to God and guns." They're not unemployed because of convoluted Freudian theory. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.. keep it to the issues, which are extreme levels of wealth inequality, globalism, corporatism, union busting, social welfare for the rich, sending jobs overseas and importing foreign workers to drive down wages here at home. None of that has a damn thing to do with Sigmund Freud.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 05:09:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oneaboveall', 'I') grew up in the Ironbound Section of Newark, NJ. It was a really blue-collar area. My grandmother and aunt were seamstresses; Dad was a longshoreman, and my cousin operates a crane. I liked to read, so I know the feeling.


Yeah I know the feeling too. So I'll admit it, you guys have a point.

BUT.. as a political strategy it's not good at all for this kind of talk to be so prevalent in Democratic circles. You see this elitism here on this forum, on HuffPost, on Firedoglake and Democratigunderground. It turns independent and Republican voters off. Times are hard enough as it is, people don't want to be condescended to.

Ultimately, you have to admit the Party itself has failed rather than blaming the stupid voters. But you can't admit that because you Democrats aren't really different than Republicans anyway, you're committed to open doors immigration, corporatism, social welfare for the rich, and globalism.

So that's why you're getting into Freud and all around hating the voters because you can't face up to the real reasons the Democratic Party has failed.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 09:47:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'I')'m fully aware that it's just luck of the genetic draw and for that reason it's nothing to be ashamed of, or proud of.


It's the predatory hyper-competitive individualism in this country I don't like; we've become a use-it-up and throw-it-away nation, with ponzis, scams, and lies at all levels from the ground up. There's no truth anymore, only marketing. Churches have thrown real Christianity out the window and it's all about feel-good affirmation and prosperity gospel now.


someone noticed ! that alone makes me feel good.

it surprised me at first how much corporate America has changed since the 1980's, when i started in Silicon Valley.

i remember at my first job, we had a VP of manufacturing that counted 3 weeks of April revenues in the March (first quarter) revenues. it was a big deal - they walked him out the door fast ... it was not well-received.

now, that kind of financial shenanigan is Standard Operating Procedure in corporate America. for example, Morgan Stanley's $4.4 million settlement in 2007, for charging investors storage fees to store precious metals - that Morgan Stanley did not have.

my guess is, they settled in cash for the actual precious metals - that is the standard procedure in that part of the commodities industry. but Morgan Stanley is supposed to be all Trustworthy.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 15:42:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oneaboveall', '.')..working class hatred of liberals began with the Civil Rights Movement. Who supports "those people" who are taking your jobs and living off of welfare? :?: Liberals (Democrats)"


The civil rights movement targeted mainly southern states controlled by democrats and big cities in the north controlled by democrats. The racist policies in those places were instituted by democrats in the 19th and early 20th century, and maintained by democrats up till the 1960s.

Right. The whole "Solid South" concept. The only thing is that after the 1960s, they switched their alligence to the Republicans. Even Johnson said that "Democrats had lost the South for a generation" after he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It should also be noted that Reagan's first public address was near Philadelphia, Mississippi (know for the "MIssissippi Burning" murders) and invoked the phrase "States Rights": a code word for segregation.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby Loki » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 16:02:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I think you'll find that libertarianism, at least the flavor popularized by people like Ron Paul, has no good answers to limits to growth either.



They sort of seem to address the issue of resources somewhat in the party platform:
<snip>

That's the tort approach to environmental protection, you pollute my well, I sue you and thus the environment is protected. Except it doesn't work.

I'm actually a big fan of Ron Paul, but the main thing that gives me pause is environmental protection. I'm a treehugger first and foremost, and libertarians for the most part don't give two hoots about the environment.

That said, I think Ron Paul's policies regarding globalism, mass immigration, anti-militarism, anti-corporatism, and the like could very well have a net beneficial effect on the environment. But who knows.
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Re: What is the Draw for Right-Wingers?

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 17:58:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Supporting individual rights to land, air, water, and wildlife


Does individual extend to corporations? Legally it does. Hence Monsanto, ADM, cargill, etc...

That's the problem with libertarianism. Hobbling government merely facilitates corporate control, and corporate power is nearly as powerful as government, if not moreso in some ways. As long as libertarians are stuck in the "government is the root of all evil" meme, they are not seeing the problem fully.

It's interesting how people cling so stubbornly to outdated ideologies without realizing how myopic their perspective is in regards to limits to growth.
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