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THE Zeitgeist Movies Thread (merged)

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Re:

Postby TommyJefferson » Sat 29 Nov 2008, 22:11:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', ''')Money', as it exists in the present culture, is exactly as described in the film.

No. It's not. Money is what I said. The definition of "money" is objective and has been known and agreed upon for centuries. Money is not debt.
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Re: "Zeitgeist" Addendum: Money=Debt

Postby Jellric » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 00:56:25

When money is created under our current system a debt is incurred.

Therefore money represents debt.
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Re:

Postby TWilliam » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 01:56:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', ''')Money', as it exists in the present culture, is exactly as described in the film.
No. It's not.
Money is what I said. The definition of "money" is objective and has been known and agreed upon for centuries. Money is not debt.

Fine. As I said, in the strict legal sense of the word, it isn't. However, the paper currency which we use to fulfill the function of money, most certainly is a debt instrument. That is the meaning of the word note in the phrase 'Federal Reserve Note'.

Calling a pig a parrot doesn't make it fly. Similarly, insisting that the paper currency that most people utilize as money in this country is not representative of debt, when every single piece of it declares itself to be so right on its face, doesn't make you correct.
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Re: "Zeitgeist" Addendum: Money=Debt

Postby TommyJefferson » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 11:31:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '.')..insisting that the paper currency that most people utilize as money in this country is not representative of debt...


Please show where I said any such thing.

You, and the movie, ignore that fact that Federal Reserve Note are only required when paying the U.S. government. Private individuals may use anything they wish as money, be that personal checks, metals, or electronic ticks at http://www.complementarycurrency.org

The premise that "Money = Debt" is simply not true. A bad premise always returns erroneous results.
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Re: "Zeitgeist" Addendum: Money=Debt

Postby TWilliam » Tue 02 Dec 2008, 02:55:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '.')..insisting that the paper currency that most people utilize as money in this country is not representative of debt...


Please show where I said any such thing.

You certainly have implied as much. I'm not interested in arguing semantics on this point.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou, and the movie, ignore that fact that Federal Reserve Note are only required when paying the U.S. government. Private individuals may use anything they wish as money, be that personal checks, metals, or electronic ticks at http://www.complementarycurrency.org

While two parties may work out an exchange of value through some medium other than currency, if the debtor subsequently opts instead to pay using currency, the other must accept it as discharging the debt (notice that a merchant can refuse checks, credit cards or any other non-cash exchange). That is the function of the legal tender laws, "for all debts, public and private". While there may be some legally addressable issues with regard to valuation of the original consideration, if the creditor tried to sue in court to enforce the original agreement, and the debtor demonstrated to the court that he attempted to discharge the debt (or offered to then) using the legally mandated medium of exchange and the creditor refused, the court would declare the debt discharged and the creditor would have no further legal recourse.

So, while it may not be required to pay using currency, it is required to accept currency as payment for discharging a debt.
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Re: "Zeitgeist" Addendum: Money=Debt

Postby angrybill » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 06:51:16

No buyers on the Venus Project yet.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
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Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby BasilBoy » Sat 29 Jan 2011, 17:19:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Zeitgeist: Moving Forward is the third instalment in Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist film series. The movie was independently released simultaneously in over 60 countries and in over 30 languages on January 15, 2011 with over 340 screenings worldwide, making it one of the largest independent events in film history. The film was launched for free on the Internet starting January 26, 2011, it has received over 300,000 views on YouTube in the first 24 hours and, as of January 29, 2011, is listed as top rated documentary of all time on IMDB.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sun 07 Aug 2011, 20:10:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged thread.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby BasilBoy » Sat 29 Jan 2011, 19:46:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')hanks for the heads-up. This is an important movie. I was able to watch part 1 (cosmology) and 2 (911) but 3(Fed Reserve) did not work so well. What is in this new release?

You watched the first movie, called Zeitgeist: The Movie (which I didn't particularly like). The second film, Zeitgeist: Addendum, is much better and definitely worth watching (it covers the Federal Reserve again, but there is some good stuff on American foreign policy).

This latest installment, Zeitgeist: Moving Forward, is outstanding. It covers human nature, modern economics and its inherent problems, technology, and peak oil. I think it's an absolute must see for anyone that wants to gain a better understanding of our situation.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'H')ave you seen YouTube - The Story of Your Enslavement? It ties in with the history of food slavery and the nutritional lies we are told.

Yes, I've seen this clip...
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Mon 31 Jan 2011, 16:39:58

Looks like your youtube link is the whole movie? Thanks for posting, I'll have to watch this later. This is the one Ruppert was talking about on his radio show.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 20:40:58

Anybody watch this yet?

I started on it.. talented filmmaking but I dunno.. something over the top about it. Seems like they're criticizing pretty much every fundamental aspect of modern life; so if you agree with them, what do you do move to the Amazon? Become Amish? Cut yourself off from society? I couldn't get too far in without turning it off, too esoteric doom even for me.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Ludi » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:14:27

For folks who don't want to wade through the movie, here's a website about the/some solutions to all our problems: http://www.thevenusproject.com/

"The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture."
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:16:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') watched the end of it, the solutions portion. Which is very Sci-fi and cool and the end of the film is very uplifting with everyone throwing their money away. But then I'm left wondering how they are going to survive, with no money and no alternative way of life in place. Remember that city with those magical machines and computers hasn't been built yet.


Ah, ok, that explains Ruppert's guarded praise then. Yup, you have to wonder how these people think we're going to get to this Star Trek future where there's no money anymore yet everybody has food to eat and clothes to wear and places to live. For one thing, without money how do you get people to do crap jobs? :lol: With no monetary incentive that means you'd need slavery or totalitarianism.

Mos has mentioned a new "energy based" economy a few times, but has never explained. In fact I haven't seen anyone explain just how a post-money society works. Even communists have money, after all (they just have to wait in line a long time to spend it).

I'll try to finish the movie sometime. Farthest I got was the part on disease and how some diseases wouldn't exist without our society being how it is blah blah blah. Probably true, and interesting, but interesting in a philosophical throwing ideas around sense -- nothing practical there.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Ludi » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:20:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ') For one thing, without money how do you get people to do crap jobs?



The machines do everything.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:27:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'F')or folks who don't want to wade through the movie, here's a website about the/some solutions to all our problems: http://www.thevenusproject.com/

"The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture."


Hm.. so what are these people, techno-post-singularity-astronaut-hippies? How is this sustainable:

Image

Star trek cities. Cities floating on the ocean. Undersea cities. Space cities. I thought this was a doomer movie? :?:

From their website:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture.


Ok that's just silly and bit cult-like. Having a goal as broad as "the total redesign of our culture" is just fantasy talk in the face of real, imminent problems. We're Westerners, with Western civilization, this is who we have been since the Greeks and Romans -- you can't just purposely "re-design" an entire culture.

Oh I get it now.. they're "futurists." :roll: Cool stuff and I respect it and wish them luck, but futurists aren't doomers.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:36:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby scas » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:36:16

Just like our civilization was built thousands of years after the Egyptians, the Greek, and the Romans, maybe these futuristic cities will be built thousands of years later on Antarctica and Greenland perhaps.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 21:44:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('scas', '[')b]Just like our civilization was built thousands of years after the Egyptians, the Greek, and the Romans, maybe these futuristic cities will be built thousands of years later on Antarctica and Greenland perhaps.


Western civilization evolved, step by step. It's one long process, nobody "designed" it all at once and neither can futurists "re-design" it. You can join another existing culture, but you cannot "re-design" culture from scratch -- it has to evolve, and that takes thousands of years.

We don't have thousands of years to deal with peak oil and the other problems, we'll have to deal with it as we are -- greedy, self-interested people who've been using money for millennia.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby scas » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 22:05:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')estern civilization evolved, step by step. It's one long process,


To me it seems that civilizations and cultures rapidly spring up from obscurity and then disappear just as quickly. Much like the bursts of life after each extinction followed by periods of stability. If climate change and peak oil knocks out many of the bigger players, then civilizations like Japan could easily head in the Venus Project direction.
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Re: Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 01 Feb 2011, 22:30:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('scas', 'T')o me it seems that civilizations and cultures rapidly spring up from obscurity and then disappear just as quickly. Much like the bursts of life after each extinction followed by periods of stability. If climate change and peak oil knocks out many of the bigger players, then civilizations like Japan could easily head in the Venus Project direction.


It's off topic and I don't want to argue it too much. But just as a Roman history nerd, I can't help but see what looks like an unbroken chain of development -- there were the Dark Ages, yes, but the old knowledge was preserved in writing and that's what gave birth to the Renaissance. This is Western Civ 101 stuff.. the Greeks and Romans are the foundation of our civilization, there's no hard wall between us and them.

You can say the same about "primitive" cultures. Take tribes in the Amazon.. they are *very* different from us Westerners, and their cultures are thousands of years old too. My point with this regarding the futurist movement is that I'm skeptical of anyone who purports to fundamentally "design" a culture from scratch. I'm sure it's a fun mental exercise, but that's just not how culture works. Look at the turbulence and millions of dead that Maoism caused. Be very wary of anyone wanting to wash your brain and hand you a new culture they designed.

But I should stop right there, it's not fair to criticize since I didn't watch the whole movie.
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