[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')t strikes me that the discussion is off focus because we have not agreed about what we are preparing for. It surely also depends upon where you live. I live in center city Philadelphia; my preps will be very different from someone living on a farm or in a town of 15,000.

Along those lines here are some thoughts from another forum that I thought were relevant and parallel my thinking very well.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems to me that to survive any SHTF scenario, a person needs to be ready to survive the three separate stages of such a scenario. And, this includes an immediate danger such as a nuclear, biological or alien attack or earthquake or volcano. Or, something a bit slower like a financial collapse, political shift, or global warming and very slow zombies.

All of these scenarios brings one thing: a shift in power from one form of government to the other. The trick is survivng the shifts in power.

The three stages of survival (as I see it) are as follows:

Immediate (Time Frame: 1-48 hours): In any dangerous and life-threatening scenario, one needs to immediately secure the safety of his/her person, family, and as mentioned in another thread, a nubile young breeding stock. Since this thread started by discussing a "bug-out boat", this scenario would mean to get from home to the boat as quickly and safely as possible and head for blue water. If you're a liveaboard, cheers!

Short-Term (Time Frame: 30-60 days): I figure that with any shift in power, the amount of time that most people will have to survive will be approximately 30-60 days. These are people without any food/water supply and must scavenge for food in the days after a disaster hits. This is by far the most critical time period. While this is happening on land, a person on a boat with their food supply could be sailing lazy circles a hundred miles offshore while eating mahi mahi and drinking desalinated water.

Long-Term (Time Frame 60+ days): No one can live on a boat forever or should unless it's a really, really big ship. This is a critical time as well because the boater needs to listen for radio message to gauge the political atmosphere. (e.g. Do I return to my marina where I was before or do I find a nice island in the Marquesas to repopulate the species).

[Revi]

I think if I lived in any city on the eastern seaboard I'd have a way of bugging out by boat. I don't know if it would have to be a blue water boat, but it would be nice. Maybe have the blue water boat out about 20 miles and take a kayak or inflatable to it. If I was bugging out of NYC I'd have the boat out on Long Island or Connecticut, or even New Jersey and put a kayak in somewhere and paddle out to it in the middle of the night. If something goes wrong in NYC it might be hard to leave the place. But if you had a Folboat or something you could put it in the water somewhere and start paddling.

I expect the next leg down to be in about 2-3 years. That's when we start to fall off the production plateau. Business as usual may continue until then, but when it starts there are going to be problems. Cities are going to be a good place to be, but maybe not all cities. There are already at least 2 major cities, Detroit and New Orleans that have been written off. I think Washington is going to be ok, parts of NYC and Boston aren't going to be abandoned any time soon, but a lot of places like Camden, NJ aren't going to be high priorities when times get tougher. Neither is Central Maine, but that's not news. We have been losing people since the Civil War.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') think if I lived in any city on the eastern seaboard I'd have a way of bugging out by boat. I don't know if it would have to be a blue water boat, but it would be nice. Maybe have the blue water boat out about 20 miles and take a kayak or inflatable to it. If I was bugging out of NYC I'd have the boat out on Long Island or Connecticut, or even New Jersey and put a kayak in somewhere and paddle out to it in the middle of the night. If something goes wrong in NYC it might be hard to leave the place. But if you had a Folboat or something you could put it in the water somewhere and start paddling.

I expect the next leg down to be in about 2-3 years. That's when we start to fall off the production plateau. Business as usual may continue until then, but when it starts there are going to be problems. Cities are going to be a good place to be, but maybe not all cities. There are already at least 2 major cities, Detroit and New Orleans that have been written off. I think Washington is going to be ok, parts of NYC and Boston aren't going to be abandoned any time soon, but a lot of places like Camden, NJ aren't going to be high priorities when times get tougher. Neither is Central Maine, but that's not news. We have been losing people since the Civil War.

[rangerone314]

How about sailing to Pitcairne Island?

I already got my worst case scenario island plotted out, and it is only a 45 minute drive.

[SpringCreekFarm]

A lot of the posts I read in the many prep threads on this board (and there have been many over the years) are mostly doomer fantasy. Unless you happen to have the ultimate doom hideaway like Roccman has or had a few years ago, hoarding just makes you a target.

In my opinion, you can only plan for a bug out or a short term crisis. Say, 90 days or so. If you need more preps than that, then I think it is only a matter of time before you fall prey to the elements or the criminals or both.

It is far better to prepare yourself with skills, some tools and by being in shape mentally and physically. Or to prepare yourself to fall victim ( death ) to it all if need be.

I feel like I have a pretty good doomstead going here but I've realized over the years that I'm not an island and as I grow older, I'll be more dependent on my neighbours and community. I'm not really into sounding the alarm and including them because they are not ready to face reality and therefore mine will be the first to raid when the SHTF and I don't want to be a martyr.

As far as I'm concerned, we all should be prepared RIGHT NOW for those short term problems that come up now and again. To prepare for lone, long-term sustainablility in a scenario that the whole community is in peril is futile.

[SeaGypsy]

Hey Newfie, how is the wife about those end of the world nubiles sharing the yacht? Or is that why you have 2? Probably better not gamble on white nubiles, their fertility is very low.

NobodyPanic, I am of the school of thought that the most important preps are those between the ears and under the skin. Flexibility, social adaptability, are as important as having some usefull all round skills.

[Revi]

I meant to have the boat at a marina 20 miles from NYC. Or maybe even 10 miles from the city. It's really expensive to have one on Manhattan Island. I think out on Long Island may be more reasonable, or in New Jersey. I don't think I would have it up the Hudson. Better to avoid the Metro area and head out into the ocean for a while. Don't make landfall until either the Carolinas or Maine. I guess you could do the same thing some place near Philly, but I don't know that area very well.

It would be nice to have a sailboat. It wouldn't have to be big, but seaworthy. A catboat or a bullseye would be great.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', 'a')nd if you just happen to sail out in the middle of hurricane season or in the midst of a big ol' nor'easter? what if being in a city is actually advantageous? what if the power concentrates there and sends tentacles out to the countryside to acquire food & etc. by any means necessary? what if our collapse takes the better portion of the century and things simply grind down oh so slowly? what about pirates: rogue coastguard units?

all the possibilities make my head spin.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', 'A') lot of the posts I read in the many prep threads on this board (and there have been many over the years) are mostly doomer fantasy. Unless you happen to have the ultimate doom hideaway like Roccman has or had a few years ago, hoarding just makes you a target.

In my opinion, you can only plan for a bug out or a short term crisis. Say, 90 days or so. If you need more preps than that, then I think it is only a matter of time before you fall prey to the elements or the criminals or both.

It is far better to prepare yourself with skills, some tools and by being in shape mentally and physically. Or to prepare yourself to fall victim ( death ) to it all if need be.

I feel like I have a pretty good doomstead going here but I've realized over the years that I'm not an island and as I grow older, I'll be more dependent on my neighbours and community. I'm not really into sounding the alarm and including them because they are not ready to face reality and therefore mine will be the first to raid when the SHTF and I don't want to be a martyr.

As far as I'm concerned, we all should be prepared RIGHT NOW for those short term problems that come up now and again. To prepare for lone, long-term sustainablility in a scenario that the whole community is in peril is futile.

[SeaGypsy]

Short of having a juiced up lear jet or helicopter with airtight fueldumps set up strategicly, neither of which is a sustainable option post oil, a yacht is the most flexible escape hatch imaginable.
The myth that you must spend a fortune to maintain a yacht is based on types of yachts and types of people owning them. There are myriad design options to suit various purposes and budgets. Phil Bolger designed a lot of liveaboard cruising yachts which can be in the water for well under $10,000; they are beachable and usually water ballasted, allowing for extremely shallow draft in a seaworthy hull.
I believe Newfie's latest is pretty much capable of anything, in capable hands would have no problem sailing anywhere in the world through any kind of weather. That's what you need if you need to short notice sail out into open ocean outside the 33rd paralell. If you don't anticipate such urgency, a much less substantial vessel will do the trick. In the tropics where I spend most of my time, shallow draft is important along with being able to get some speed on; so I am into multi hull designs which are very light and tough, plus easily repairable on a beach and very cheap to build/ maintain. Horses for courses.

[SeaGypsy]

Not to knock even the humble 'tinnie' with outboard. I used a combination of one of these and a ramshackle homemade engineless houseboat to achieve free rent in very quiet backwaters very close to popular tourist area and cities on the east coast of Australia. I also camped extensively on Cape York, using a tinny as my means of getting around. When there aint no more fuel, use the outboard as an anchor and strap on an outrigger or 2 and an improvised sail. You can still get around, go fishing, visit the rels etc. It is a lot easier to get the hell away from everybody in any knid of boat than in any kind of car. A tinny worth $5000 (14 ft with 20 hp for ease of handling) will get you and a few others further away from trouble quicker than a $50,000 monster truck.

[PrestonSturges]

Whats the deal with ramshackle catamarans and trimarans around the world being used as marine hobo shacks? No rigging, a plastic tarp over the cabin, milk crates on the stern, dirty laundry. What's up?

Houseboats tend to sink - pontoon boats leak at the seams, and regular houseboats are often half sunk at the dock. Is it because they don't shed rainwater or what?

[SeaGypsy]

People forget they are boats and need maintenance. Food grade plastic drums are unsinkable.
In Oz, if you are visible you are required to comply with state marine laws, my houseboats only moved at night and were generally way up a shallow mangrove creek. Hardly ever saw anyone up there.
Besides, yuppie ownership of waterways is bull.

[Newfie]

SeaGypsy,

I am basically egocentric so I was writing from my perspective in Philadelphia. My sailing is basically between 40N and 50N on a far different coast than yours. Different not only in geography and climate but in human density. I gotta go a long, long way to get sufficiently far away.

Dad was a bayman. Every creek had its share of men working the water, making a living. I can tell you preciously how many men are left doing that now. 0. Yet there are power boats all over the place. Big, shallow, high windage cabin cruisers for blasting around blaring the stereo. I don't want anyone to think I am recommending them except as an extreme act.

[SeaGypsy]

I fully get why you are into the big solid steel keeler, don't get me wrong.
When it comes to small boats I am into very small collapsible, unsinkable, vessels to get hight up creeks, past where the loons and hoons get. But you are right, population density varies enormously from place to place as does weather and sea conditions.

More the point i would like to make is that it doesn't necessarily have to be a 50 foot cruiser worth over $50k. Hunter yachts of only 19 ft worth $5k have crossed the Atlantic many times.

[SeaGypsy]

double post...

[Revi]

I would like to get a Drascombe lugger or a Norseboat, but they are out of my price range right now. I have a "tinnie" and use it to get around the coast of Maine all summer. It's easy, costs nothing to store and can be taken in and out of the water easily. I think something with shallow draft, but seaworthy is the thing to get. I've been looking. I think there are places, like the Winterport marina that are pretty reasonable for storage of something bigger. I was there last fall and they had two Rangers for sale for pretty reasonable prices. There may be one there still.

http://winterportmarine.com/

[SeaGypsy]

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/jochems.htm

One Bolger fave of mine...trailerable water ballasted live aboard ocean capable fixed tabernacle masted schooner..

[Revi]

That looks like the perfect boat. Maybe not a real blue water boat, but you could take it around some points and make it up into the gunkholes. I like the fact that it's trailerable. That saves a lot of money and hassle. I may look for it.

[Newfie]

OK, since we are Shanghi-ing this thread, lets do it right. Lets listen to a lady who lives every day fully prepared. Far, far more prepared than any of us (excepting Spring Creek, of course. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Hill

Get her book, Voyaging on a Small Income.

SHE is a survivalist, just or the hell of it, and having a blast at the same time. She basically retired after her and her first husband worked, part time, for about 5 years. Built their own boat. But they could only do it because they gave up meat and ate beans instead. Really. How many of us are so close to the edge that eating beans balances our budget?

Here boat Badger meets most all criteria for both SeaGypy and Revi. Shoal, cheap, easy, beachable, sea worthy.

http://anniehill.blogspot.com/