Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 10:29:11

So, yer a management suck, eh? :-D
vision-master
 
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 10:47:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'L')ooks like the slow snow cleanup by Unionized Thugs in NYC was a budget protest action by the Union. Socialized Snow Removal at work. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/sani ... OJlekSSDJK

8O If any of that is true it is a public relations disaster for the unions. I can't imagine their leadership being that stupid.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Cloud9 » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 11:01:12

vtsnowedin If you research the history of railroad development in the United States you will find that a considerable portion of it was financed by English investors. One of the curiosities of the Civil War was that both the North and the South bought millions of dollars worth of munitions from England. The Confederates particularly prized the rifled Enfield muskets of the period.

England had no way of knowing which side would prevail in the conflict and most prudent manufactures insisted that all purchases be made in hard currency.

When the war was over, English capitalists were flush with American gold and decided to invest in American railroads. They used postal maps to play connect the dot and overbuilt. This resulted in massive bankruptcies. At the end of the game J.P. Morgan wound up owning the lion’s share of railroads in this country for pennies on the dollar. In a round about way, our railroad system was in no small part constructed by Civil War gold.
User avatar
Cloud9
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Wed 26 Jul 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Cloud9 » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 11:09:52

It appears the Union bosses decided to help shut the city down to remind New Yorkers of their importance.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/sani ... OJlekSSDJK
User avatar
Cloud9
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Wed 26 Jul 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 11:51:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'v')tsnowedin If you research the history of railroad development in the United States you will find that a considerable portion of it was financed by English investors. One of the curiosities of the Civil War was that both the North and the South bought millions of dollars worth of munitions from England. The Confederates particularly prized the rifled Enfield muskets of the period.

England had no way of knowing which side would prevail in the conflict and most prudent manufactures insisted that all purchases be made in hard currency.

When the war was over, English capitalists were flush with American gold and decided to invest in American railroads. They used postal maps to play connect the dot and overbuilt. This resulted in massive bankruptcies. At the end of the game J.P. Morgan wound up owning the lion’s share of railroads in this country for pennies on the dollar. In a round about way, our railroad system was in no small part constructed by Civil War gold.

8) I didn't mean to imply that there was no private money involved just that the government had a hand in it. There were the land grants to the railroads along both sides of the corridors in addition to the ROWs themselves. I remember that there were alternating blocks each side of the ROW but how far out they went I would have to look up. The history of the robber barons in America is a interesting and sometimes sordid tale.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Cloud9 » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 12:00:36

Quite true, the land grant system contributed significantly to the westward expansion of the system. So I guess we could argue that a considerable portion of that construction was financed by the Indians.


What did you think about the union workers in NY?
User avatar
Cloud9
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Wed 26 Jul 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby IsThisRealLife » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 12:02:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '.')..1 million people in central NJ snowed into their homes because roads have not been plowed because the state and local governments ran out of money.
...
I have always been of the position the state doesn't give crap about you unless they are there to take your money. Where is the state now? People better learn how to take care of themselves and better do it fast is all I have to say.
Well, there goes your opportunity to demonstrate big government is bad. Issue an RFP, short list a few proposals, fine-tune the small details, select the best proposal, pay for it, and let the free market get you out of the snow. Wait, better, get a shovel and dig yourself out of the snow. Wait, even better, do like Gov Christie, get your big government paycheck, use your big government privileges and status, and leave for Disney while the market is sorting things out for you.
IsThisRealLife
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 07:37:35
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Novus » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 12:21:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IsThisRealLife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '.')..1 million people in central NJ snowed into their homes because roads have not been plowed because the state and local governments ran out of money.
...
I have always been of the position the state doesn't give crap about you unless they are there to take your money. Where is the state now? People better learn how to take care of themselves and better do it fast is all I have to say.
Well, there goes your opportunity to demonstrate big government is bad. Issue an RFP, short list a few proposals, fine-tune the small details, select the best proposal, pay for it, and let the free market get you out of the snow. Wait, better, get a shovel and dig yourself out of the snow. Wait, even better, do like Gov Christie, get your big government paycheck, use your big government privileges and status, and leave for Disney while the market is sorting things out for you.


Being the prepared DOOMer that I am I personally have enough provisions just wait for it all to melt. I won't touch a shovel all winter nor will I pay 1 cent for snow removal. A lot of this has to do with not owning a car for the last few years. Walkable living arrangements is the only sustainable future. Screw big governments and screw big corporations.
User avatar
Novus
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: Tue 21 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 12:22:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'Q')uite true, the land grant system contributed significantly to the westward expansion of the system. So I guess we could argue that a considerable portion of that construction was financed by the Indians.


What did you think about the union workers in NY?

I'm not sure. One story in one paper doesn't make it true. Very bad for them if it was deliberately slowed down. Also very bad for the supervisors that let them get away with it.
The way to show that the cutbacks have gone too far would be to have every machine working at the full capacity along with all hands on board. Then if there is work they are not getting to in a timely way there is only one way to point the finger.
It's one thing to say that plow 28 is parked because you laid off it's driver, quite another to say it's parked while the driver takes a mandatory coffee break and union shop meeting.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 13:18:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')he extensive network of roads that need to be cleared of snow only exist due to huge government subsidies of the transportation infrastructure. If all transportation was privately funded we would have more compact communities where people walked and they would be connected to each other by trains.

:o Where was a rail line ever built with private funds?


All throughout the history of the US for one. My rail stock 10-Q documents show the hundreds of millions of dollars that Norfolk Southern, BNSF, etc pay for track maintenance, upgrades and extensions of both track, switching and other associated facilities yearly. It's probably true that a large part of the initial funds and acquisition of land for the long-haul rail line came from central government action. It was also fairly common for local townships and private developers of new towns to either pay directly or agree to be taxed to have streetcar lines extended and maintained to their towns. Now for the most part, a private developer plops a subdivision or a walmart next to an interstate and mooches off that facility and the government (usually at the state level for local roads) has to pay for all the maintenance costs of all the new roads, traffic control etc . The federal facility (the interstate) becomes clogged with people using it for local travel and the federal government encourages that by then paying for the expansion and added maintenance costs induced by the extra use.

Take away all Federal government funds for maintaining all transportation infrastructure and the system will eventually become much more local (walking, biking) and rail and sea for long-haul shipping and travel in my opinion. This would happen concurrent with the rearrangement of where and how people live.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby the48thronin » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 16:25:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')he extensive network of roads that need to be cleared of snow only exist due to huge government subsidies of the transportation infrastructure. If all transportation was privately funded we would have more compact communities where people walked and they would be connected to each other by trains.

:o Where was a rail line ever built with private funds?


All throughout the history of the US for one. My rail stock 10-Q documents show the hundreds of millions of dollars that Norfolk Southern, BNSF, etc pay for track maintenance, upgrades and extensions of both track, switching and other associated facilities yearly. It's probably true that a large part of the initial funds and acquisition of land for the long-haul rail line came from central government action. It was also fairly common for local townships and private developers of new towns to either pay directly or agree to be taxed to have streetcar lines extended and maintained to their towns. Now for the most part, a private developer plops a subdivision or a walmart next to an interstate and mooches off that facility and the government (usually at the state level for local roads) has to pay for all the maintenance costs of all the new roads, traffic control etc . The federal facility (the interstate) becomes clogged with people using it for local travel and the federal government encourages that by then paying for the expansion and added maintenance costs induced by the extra use.

Take away all Federal government funds for maintaining all transportation infrastructure and the system will eventually become much more local (walking, biking) and rail and sea for long-haul shipping and travel in my opinion. This would happen concurrent with the rearrangement of where and how people live.



Take away the transportstion funds subsidies for amtrac ROW maint and demonstration projects, make the r r pay for crossing and other devices they cost pass throu to fed andlocal, then discuss with the R R the closure of thousands of miles of track without the return to the nation of the gains from the 1 square mile alternat side blcks of land grant they were awarded for a line to be maintained for 200 years... the profitability and public cost of the r r might be less than you presume.

But there are always horses, mules and oxen for long distance from water travel right?
Malthusian Riders Member!

Courtesy and Courage Sincerity and Self-control Honor and Loyalty a Code to Live By!
What do the miners do when the canary dies? EVACUATE THE MINE not argue about the color of it's feathers or buy a parrot instead.

Where is my pitchfork and torch? I need them for a visit to the castle!
User avatar
the48thronin
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri 30 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: On the highway, or the water somewhere!
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Novus » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 16:51:12

Update: Central NJ is still a disaster area 4 days after the blizzard. Some back areas are still snowed in and the main roads are grid locked with people trying to get out to the store. Some of the drifts were too heavy of regular snow plows. What looked like heavy mining equipment was brought in to get the snow out of the road. Thankfully there have been no reports of deaths. Things might get back to normal by new years but for now avoid the area.
User avatar
Novus
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: Tue 21 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 18:38:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'U')pdate: Central NJ is still a disaster area 4 days after the blizzard. Some back areas are still snowed in and the main roads are grid locked with people trying to get out to the store. Some of the drifts were too heavy of regular snow plows. What looked like heavy mining equipment was brought in to get the snow out of the road. Thankfully there have been no reports of deaths. Things might get back to normal by new years but for now avoid the area.

Whereabouts? From Woodbridge on down or further up?
When the banksters want something, our policymakers move with the speed of Mercury and the determination of Ares. It’s only when the rest of us need something that there is paralysis.

How free are we today with the dominance of globalist capital and militarized security apparatus?
Oneaboveall
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon 01 Nov 2010, 17:56:45
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby IsThisRealLife » Thu 30 Dec 2010, 19:46:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'U')pdate: Central NJ is still a disaster area 4 days after the blizzard.
Why isn't the free market saving the day? You'd imagine that 4 days would be sufficient to get it done better, faster and cheaper than the government.
IsThisRealLife
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 07:37:35
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby Roy » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 08:06:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy isn't the free market saving the day?


In order to understand why the market isn't doing something, first you have to understand why it does something. PROFIT.

That's it. No altruism there.

If there isn't any money in it, guaranteed money or at least the illusion of massive profits (like the recent housing bubble), it won't happen.

It's not happening, ergo its not a consistently profitable activity, this emergency snow clearing. If a company did invest and gear up, how often would they have opportunities to profit, versus the amount of time their investment (machines and men) sit idle?

Which is why such activities are socialized.

edited for spelling error.
A nations military should only be used in a nations self defense, not to entertain liberal cravings for shaping poor nations into images of themselves by force. -- Eastbay

Shooting the messenger is typical when you are incapable of arguing against them. -- Airline Pilot
Roy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Getting in touch with my Inner Redneck
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 08:42:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy isn't the free market saving the day?


In order to understand why the market isn't doing something, first you have to understand why it does something. PROFIT.

That's it. No altruism there.

If there isn't any money in it, guaranteed money or at least the illusion of massive profits (like the recent housing bubble), it won't happen.

It's not happening, ergo its not a consistently profitable activity, this emergency snow clearing. If a company did invest and gear up, how often would they have opportunities to profit, versus the amount of time their investment (machines and men) sit idle?

Which is why such activities are socialized.

edited for spelling error.

8) Actually a mix of public and private sources is what works best up here in the snow belt. State garages in the state I used to work for have on average fifty miles of road to clear ,three state plow trucks and at least one hired truck parked in them for the winter. The hired trucks work construction hauling hot top and gravel in the summer and work for the state when it snows in the winter to keep some cash flow going through the off season.The owner operator provides a sand hopper spreader that is rented by the month whether it snows or not and the truck and driver get called in each storm and work by the hour. The state provides the sand and salt loaded and covered place to park with a plug in for the block heater.The state foreman provides the supervision and does the billing paperwork. This lets the state expand or contract the plow force as needed hour by hour and keep control of who goes where and for how long. Also the hired trucks are much larger then the standard state plow truck and have the horsepower to throw snow up and over guard rails with ease.
That storm was an unusual one and would have caused delays even up here in the big snowdrift.
You can't mount a plow on your pickup and go plow snow overnight or pay for the plow in just one storm in a decade and property owners and bureaucrats can't decide who to pay and how much to pay them before the snow melts by itself. A snow plow is a lot of expensive iron to have sitting at the end of the driveway if you don't have regular use for it.
Buffalo NY got caught a few years ago by not having the contracts signed with their private snow plowers before the first storm hit on Thanksgiving weekend.Two feet of lake effect snow during rush hour and things came to a standstill. A few heads rolled on that one.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby IsThisRealLife » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 09:52:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy isn't the free market saving the day?
In order to understand why the market isn't doing something, first you have to understand why it does something. PROFIT. That's it. No altruism there. Which is why such activities are socialized.
And that's the rub. And people don't get that some services are better served by (big) government.
IsThisRealLife
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 07:37:35
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 10:17:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IsThisRealLife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy isn't the free market saving the day?
In order to understand why the market isn't doing something, first you have to understand why it does something. PROFIT. That's it. No altruism there. Which is why such activities are socialized.
And that's the rub. And people don't get that some services are better served by (big) government.

The question becomes How big is big enough? If it becomes too big to pay for then we are not well served.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby IsThisRealLife » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 10:41:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'T')he question becomes How big is big enough? If it becomes too big to pay for then we are not well served.
True. Just cut the Rambo budget in half, keep our toys in the box, and there you have it, plenty of money to go around for street cleaning, bridge re-building, etc.
IsThisRealLife
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 07:37:35
Top

Re: Partial societial breakdown 3 days after blizzard.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 31 Dec 2010, 10:49:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IsThisRealLife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'T')he question becomes How big is big enough? If it becomes too big to pay for then we are not well served.
True. Just cut the Rambo budget in half, keep our toys in the box, and there you have it, plenty of money to go around for street cleaning, bridge re-building, etc.

I'm sure where and how much to cut out of federal, state and local budgets will be a top topic this coming year. It would be fun to watch if so much wasn't at stake for each of us personally.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top
Previous
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests