[dolanbaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'D')on't worry folks. We will not be paying back all that money - believe me. New government to be elected in early 2011 and they will default within 18 months.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', 'I')'ll agree with that, It's only a matter of time before the realisation that when so many countries are in such debt that the system as it currently stands can no longer be sustained.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'S')orry to say it in such form, but cultural and ethnic background of Europe is such that attempting American style federal governing is a plainly nonsensical, Utopian idea.

[cephalotus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', '
')
The only way I can see the Irish getting out of this is to get out of the EU, re-instate the punt and then watch as it sinks out of sight.

Yet again the people have been left unconsulted as the 'elites' royally screw them.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cephalotus', 'G')reece may be almost bankrupt, but what about California for an example?

[kiwichick]

US in the sh@t bigtime

i'd rather be in europe than the US....at least getting sick wouldn't bankrupt me

[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'A')t least the Supreme Soviets represented workers. This lot are so deep in the pockets of capitalists, they've lost all notion of what daylight looks like. There is nothing more foul than a dictatorship dedicated to lining the pockets of a fat and obese nobility and bourgeoisie class.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')tripped to its essentials, the €85bn package imposed on Ireland by the Eurogroup and the European Central Bank is a bail-out for improvident British, German, Dutch, and Belgian bankers and creditors.

The Irish taxpayers carry the full burden, and deplete what remains of their reserve pension fund to cover a quarter of the cost.
This arrangement – I am not going to grace it with the term deal – was announced in Brussels before the elected Taoiseach of Ireland had been able to tell his own people what their fate would be.

The Taoiseach said afterwards that Brussels had squelched any idea of haircuts for senior bondholders: a lack of “political and institutional” support in his polite words: or “they hit the roof”, according to leaks.

One can see why the EU authorities reacted so vehemently. Such a move at this delicate juncture would have set off an even more dramatic chain reaction in the EMU debt markets than the one we are already seeing.

It is harder to justify why the Irish should pay the entire price for upholding the European banking system, and why they should accept ruinous terms.

I might add that if it is really true that a haircut on the senior debt of Anglo Irish, et al, would bring down the entire financial edifice of Europe, then how did any of these European banks pass their stress tests this summer, and how did the EU authorities ever let the matter reach this point? Brussels cannot have it both ways.

Ireland did not run large fiscal deficits or violate the Maastricht Treaty in the boom years. It ran a fiscal surplus, (as did Spain) and reduced its public debt to near zero. German finance minister Wolfgang Schauble keeps missing this basic point, but then we don’t want to disturb a comfortable – and convenient – German prejudice.

(snip)

Let me finish with a few words by Dan O’Brien, the Economics Editor of the Irish Times, that caught my eye.

“Nothing quite symbolised this State’s loss of sovereignty than the press conference at which the ECB man spoke along with two IMF men and a European Commission official. It was held in the Government press centre beneath the Taoiseach’s office. I am a xenophile and cosmopolitan by nature, but to see foreign technocrats take over the very heart of the apparatus of this State to tell the media how the State will be run into the foreseeable future caused a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100008812/irelands-debt-servitude/

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')So what happens if bondholders were to ever take a haircut? Would the global economy explode or something?

[Daniel_Plainview]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Irish taxpayers carry the full burden, and deplete what remains of their reserve pension fund to cover a quarter of the cost. ... It is harder to justify why the Irish should pay the entire price for upholding the European banking system, and why they should accept ruinous terms.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daniel_Plainview', 'T')here's no way that this will fly with the Irish citizens ... no way ... There will be a default, or an outright rejection of the "bailout" when the new government steps in.

[perdition79]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'M')aybe that's what wanting the pension fund is all about, to hold hostage so Ireland is trapped in debt and can't default.

[Cabrone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cephalotus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', '
')
The only way I can see the Irish getting out of this is to get out of the EU, re-instate the punt and then watch as it sinks out of sight.

Yet again the people have been left unconsulted as the 'elites' royally screw them.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')I think there are just too many structural differences between American states and EU nations to make a comparison like "Greece vs. California." No American state can collapse unless the whole country collapses.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')hat do you think will happen to California when they can't borrow anymore money?

Already the last California bond sale was a flop---they could only find buyers for 60% of the bonds they offered. The next step is for California to offer to pay more then market interest rates to attract buyers, but that puts them right on the path to being Greece.

[Cabrone]

TBH Ireland's debt is of a different magnitude to the US's. Just to give you a sense of scale here are some comparative figures between the two countries:

Gross external debt figures compiled by the IMF (Link)...

Ireland's external debt: $2,131,267,000,000
US external debt: $13,984,097,000,000
US external debt = 6.6 times Ireland's

Now looking at the economic\populations of the two countries:

US GDP: $14,256,000,000,000
Ireland GDP: $227,781,000,000
US GDP = 62.6 times Ireland's.

US Population: 310,815,000
Ireland's population = 4,470,700
US population = 69.5 times Ireland's.

USA
Ireland

If you Americans think you have debt problems.......Ireland's debt is approx ten times the USA's when you factor in the relative sizes of the two countries.

That's why I can't see them ever paying this off.

PS: Although the Uk is drowning in the debt toilet alongside Ireland (we owe $8,980,793,000,000) our political masters have just thrown them a $7bn bung. All very generous stuff but I just wish someone could have reminded them that the cupboard was bare here too.

[dolanbaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'P')S: Although the Uk is drowning in the debt toilet alongside Ireland (we owe $8,980,793,000,000) our political masters have just thrown them a $7bn bung. All very generous stuff but I just wish someone could have reminded them that the cupboard was bare here too.

[argyle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')tripped to its essentials, the €85bn package imposed on Ireland by the Eurogroup and the European Central Bank is a bail-out for improvident British, German, Dutch, and Belgian bankers and creditors.

The Irish taxpayers carry the full burden, and deplete what remains of their reserve pension fund to cover a quarter of the cost.
This arrangement – I am not going to grace it with the term deal – was announced in Brussels before the elected Taoiseach of Ireland had been able to tell his own people what their fate would be.

The Taoiseach said afterwards that Brussels had squelched any idea of haircuts for senior bondholders: a lack of “political and institutional” support in his polite words: or “they hit the roof”, according to leaks.

One can see why the EU authorities reacted so vehemently. Such a move at this delicate juncture would have set off an even more dramatic chain reaction in the EMU debt markets than the one we are already seeing.

It is harder to justify why the Irish should pay the entire price for upholding the European banking system, and why they should accept ruinous terms.

I might add that if it is really true that a haircut on the senior debt of Anglo Irish, et al, would bring down the entire financial edifice of Europe, then how did any of these European banks pass their stress tests this summer, and how did the EU authorities ever let the matter reach this point? Brussels cannot have it both ways.

Ireland did not run large fiscal deficits or violate the Maastricht Treaty in the boom years. It ran a fiscal surplus, (as did Spain) and reduced its public debt to near zero. German finance minister Wolfgang Schauble keeps missing this basic point, but then we don’t want to disturb a comfortable – and convenient – German prejudice.

(snip)

Let me finish with a few words by Dan O’Brien, the Economics Editor of the Irish Times, that caught my eye.

“Nothing quite symbolised this State’s loss of sovereignty than the press conference at which the ECB man spoke along with two IMF men and a European Commission official. It was held in the Government press centre beneath the Taoiseach’s office. I am a xenophile and cosmopolitan by nature, but to see foreign technocrats take over the very heart of the apparatus of this State to tell the media how the State will be run into the foreseeable future caused a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100008812/irelands-debt-servitude/

[Cabrone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'P')S: Although the Uk is drowning in the debt toilet alongside Ireland (we owe $8,980,793,000,000) our political masters have just thrown them a $7bn bung. All very generous stuff but I just wish someone could have reminded them that the cupboard was bare here too.

[dolanbaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'M')y money is on an Irish default at some stage.