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Heavy taxes on fuel for private vehicle use?

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Re: Heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use?

Unread postby heyhoser » Thu 12 May 2005, 07:36:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobeau', 'W')hat if the U.S. government decided to place a heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use (bringing it more in line with European prices), and used the tax as subsidies for commercial uses?


Bobeau, I think that this would be the perfect solution, in theory. If the average American could be forced to cut back on consumption while at the same time paying more taxes that could go into renewable energy research and development for using what the rest of the world sees as a luxury, then PO would be moot (for now...)

In reality, however, our entire infastructure is built on the need for consumption and private transportation. Our megacities could perhaps get away with it, but the rest of America would become crippled due to the immense sprawl of suburbia.
Also, we would have to consider the amount of time, energy, and work that would go into creating such a vast fleet of public transit systems. If we'd built this country like Europe from day one, then, yes, this may have worked as population centers would be more centralized.

The problem is not so much in the cost, but in the reality of who we are.
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Re: Heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use?

Unread postby bobeau » Thu 12 May 2005, 14:27:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobeau', 'W')hat if the U.S. government decided to place a heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use (bringing it more in line with European prices), and used the tax as subsidies for commercial uses?


In reality, however, our entire infastructure is built on the need for consumption and private transportation. Our megacities could perhaps get away with it, but the rest of America would become crippled due to the immense sprawl of suburbia.


Why not have large rail systems follow the paths of highways and have light rail/bus stations/stops located in suburbia? To a small degree this is already in place in San Diego. The scale just needs to be increased dramatically. For instance in rush hour a suburbanite might have to drive 1.5 hours to go 30 miles - a healthy public transport system could certainly do better, and at this point it's already more cost effective.

The only places I could not see this applied are rural areas. But perhaps those could get a bye as they're rather insignificant anyway.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '
')
Also, we would have to consider the amount of time, energy, and work that would go into creating such a vast fleet of public transit systems.


Great, it's a new industry to help prop the economy :-D. I'm not proposing this happen at once, simply that we start moving aggressively toward it. Just increasing a bus fleet by a factor of 10 doesn't require any infrastructure at all (besides route planning), just money.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '
')
The problem is not so much in the cost, but in the reality of [b]who we are.


We are what we've been allowed to get away with. How many men would live a lifestyle like Hugh Hefner if they could? :) Something completely unprecedented is looming over socciety at large - it might be a bit presumptuous to conclude what people may or may not accept.
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Unread postby bruin » Thu 12 May 2005, 15:23:33

It's far too late for a fuel tax.

Can you imagine this announcement? Gas hit $3 a gallon in the US but in order to help you out some more were going to make it $4!

This should have been done after the 70's when we knew our time was limitied but already were used to fuel issues. That tax money would wisely have been spent on the "next fuel". Think of where we would be today after 30 years of reseach with the fuel tax?

Instead we've got announcement of "We'll be back to $25!" Amazing.
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Unread postby smiley » Thu 12 May 2005, 16:31:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ee that link I provided? It was meant to be clicked

In case that is not possible...

Its title is "GM Ecotec engine"

More specifically it says "It was developed by an international team of engineers and technicians from Opel's International Technical Development Center in Rüsselsheim, Germany".

If you mean to point out this powerplant was not designed on GM's home turf, so what? GM owns Opel.


I have read the link, but the ownership of Opel and the ownership of the engine are two separate issues. Sure they can use the engine at this moment but at the moment GM decides to sell OPEL (which seems very likely) they will lose all rights on that engine.

One of the problems GM is experiencing now is that, due to the breakup with Fiat, they have to pay a huge licensing fee to Fiat for the use of their SDE diesel engine.
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Unread postby bobeau » Thu 12 May 2005, 16:35:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bruin', 'I')t's far too late for a fuel tax.
...
Instead we've got announcement of "We'll be back to $25!" Amazing.


Again, this is all predicated on the public being on board, having been through the initial recession/demand destruction cycle.
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Unread postby bobeau » Thu 12 May 2005, 16:42:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')Sure they can use the engine at this moment but at the moment GM decides to sell OPEL (which seems very likely) they will lose all rights on that engine.


True, GM's position has been self-fulfilling. Do they have the option to make the right choices?
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Unread postby Tanada » Thu 12 May 2005, 19:48:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobeau', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')Sure they can use the engine at this moment but at the moment GM decides to sell OPEL (which seems very likely) they will lose all rights on that engine.


True, GM's position has been self-fulfilling. Do they have the option to make the right choices?


That's an easy fix, Opel sells the rights to use the engine to say Chevrolet or Saturn in perpetuity, then when GM sells Opel <if they do> they will still have full access. A wholly owned or majority owned subsidiary is much easier to controll than a partnership.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use?

Unread postby heyhoser » Fri 13 May 2005, 12:20:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobeau', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '[')i]In reality, however, our entire infastructure is built on the need for consumption and private transportation. Our megacities could perhaps get away with it, but the rest of America would become crippled due to the immense sprawl of suburbia.


Why not have large rail systems follow the paths of highways and have light rail/bus stations/stops located in suburbia? To a small degree this is already in place in San Diego. The scale just needs to be increased dramatically. For instance in rush hour a suburbanite might have to drive 1.5 hours to go 30 miles - a healthy public transport system could certainly do better, and at this point it's already more cost effective.

The only places I could not see this applied are rural areas. But perhaps those could get a bye as they're rather insignificant anyway.



I still don't believe that you grasp the enormity of our infastructure based on private transportation and how absurd and energy deficient it would be to install rail-systems/bus lines in suburbia. Your optimism is refreshing, albeit incomprehensible.
Check out 'Chicago-Land', a great example of a megacity that has put a lot of effort in public transportation with some really good results. The public transit system definitely reduces the flow of traffic into Chicago (which is already congested and bumper to bumper every day), but it doesn't reduce the traffic from home to depot. The parking lots for rail lines are packed. And it doesn't always cut your travel time immensely.

This link (click refresh in the new web browser when it comes up) shows a little of Chicago-Land. Zoom in, zip around, and imagine busses and rail lines being built to accomodate each neighborhood. Impossible. But a good start! If we could rebuild the infastructure and live on top of each other instead of side-by-side, yeah, Chicago-Land would be homefree in terms of subsisting on public transit only (as far as consumers go).

Now, your reference to rural areas being unimportant and that we could say 'bye' to them is probably not a great statement to make. Basically because that's where all out domestic food comes from. Check out Wilkesboro, NC, home of Tyson Foods and Lowes Hardware. It's the same area size as the Chicago-Land map. All those fire departments are in small communities centered in huge areas that raise chickens, cows, llamas, grow apples, corn, tobacco. Zoom in just a little bit and look at all those bright green areas. Those are hundreds and hundreds of farms that put food on your table. Zoom in and look at the transit grid. Not very impressive. We could build bus lines way out to the Smith's farm so he could go into town once in a while, but he's three miles from his nearest neighbor. That's why public transportation fails for the rural areas. Because it's not public.

Saying goodbye to rural areas would be the same thing as not growing ANY food and instead, producing steel. We can't eat steel.

We use so much gasoline not because we're cocky or drive SUV's (that's just a scapegoat), but because of the way we've built our country.
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Re: Heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use?

Unread postby bobeau » Fri 13 May 2005, 18:19:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', ' ')
This link (click refresh in the new web browser when it comes up) shows a little of Chicago-Land. Zoom in, zip around, and imagine busses and rail lines being built to accomodate each neighborhood. Impossible. But a good start!


This is not necessarily black and white. It's something to work toward. You start with the biggest problem areas (highest density) and work from there. And you're most likely right, at a point is becomes too expensive (energy-wise) to service particular areas. Perhaps scaling such a tax in regards to density and existing public transport access?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', ' ')
Now, your reference to rural areas being unimportant and that we could say 'bye' to them is probably not a great statement to make.
Saying goodbye to rural areas would be the same thing as not growing ANY food and instead, producing steel. We can't eat steel.


I meant 'bye' as in an exclusion from the tax. Not that they're not important. But because they are important, the degree of spread, and lack of density this would be hurtful and reap little benefit.
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Re: Heavy tax on fuel for private vehicle use?

Unread postby heyhoser » Sat 14 May 2005, 21:02:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobeau', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', ' ')
This link (click refresh in the new web browser when it comes up) shows a little of Chicago-Land. Zoom in, zip around, and imagine busses and rail lines being built to accomodate each neighborhood. Impossible. But a good start!


This is not necessarily black and white. It's something to work toward. You start with the biggest problem areas (highest density) and work from there. And you're most likely right, at a point is becomes too expensive (energy-wise) to service particular areas. Perhaps scaling such a tax in regards to density and existing public transport access?


Hmm, food for thought, that's for sure...But I think more needs to be done regarding the infastructure of American society (the way we live, how we live, out individualistic nature, etc.). I like your points, though, I think the picture is larger than what you're looking at. Of course, every little bit could help. :)
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Unread postby jmacdaddio » Sun 15 May 2005, 18:41:00

I was watching CNN last month and they had a quick chat with the Dolans, the married couple who host a financial advice show. They were reporting from the NY Int'l Auto Show and they specifically singled out GM as being in the midst of its death throes because none of their offerings were anything to get excited about, and they were rolling out more gas guzzlers as usual in the face of rising gas prices.

They went on to describe a conspiracy theory: the US Federal Gov't is working hand in hand with the Big Two and a Half to keep gas guzzling cars on the road because the Federal Gov't takes in 19.4 cents in taxes on every gallon of gas sold. More gas sold = more tax revenue. If taxes went up to European levels people would vote the pols out of office so the Federal Gov't is dependent upon volume to collect revenue.

I will vote for any politician in my district who has the courage to say that fuel taxes need to go up to help pay for infrastructure improvements that will help us cope with PO. $5 a gallon is fine with me.
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