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Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 12 Nov 2010, 19:55:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')Overlaying this model of usage... blah-dy blah... no real movement in a proper relationship with this one earth of ours


Which is why I promote the Sharing and Gift Economy and why Bill Mollison promotes permacultural communities.

You seem to demand instant cultural change. I think incremental change is more plausible. A Sharing Economy and permaculture are something we can all begin working toward TODAY. But your overthrow of the status quo will always ever happen in the future.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 12 Nov 2010, 21:45:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')Overlaying this model of usage... blah-dy blah... no real movement in a proper relationship with this one earth of ours


Which is why I promote the Sharing and Gift Economy and why Bill Mollison promotes permacultural communities.

You seem to demand instant cultural change. I think incremental change is more plausible. A Sharing Economy and permaculture are something we can all begin working toward TODAY. But your overthrow of the status quo will always ever happen in the future.


Here in provincial Asia there is a simultaneous communitarianism/ capitalism/ permaculture which has evolved spontaneously in response to the almost utter uselessness of the state.

People don't function as invividuals except in a modern contrivance.
Here there are some members of a family who work and bring home money, others staying home looking after the children, the garden and animals; while some run a microbusiness in food or fashion or whatever.

Every garden has food plants and animals as a matter of course; every family shares according to priority and traditional responsibility.
None of this happens in response to a law or order of the state; it's just natural.

Bill Mollison had some extremely successfull community projects in Asia, because the basic human infrastructure is already in place; all that was needed was assistance with water management and plant selection/ methodology.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 12 Nov 2010, 21:58:10

I think it will be MUCH harder for us to form mutually supportive communities in the USA, because of our "paddle your own canoe" ethic. Needing or wanting help is seen as failure. Every wo/man is supposed to be an island. The idea of "give support - get support" is foreign, especially to white urban folks. There seems to be more community among some non-white and some rural folks. Americans like to think of themselves as pioneers independently striking off across the prairie (or something) but they don't realize the pioneers all helped each other or they wouldn't have survived! I like to hope some of this (fake) "independence" will change in the near future and folks will learn how to work together. :!:
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 12 Nov 2010, 22:20:30

Yep; the goobermint and banks have inserted themselves into the core of people's being, to the point they have lost touch with who they really are.
I went through a massive culture shock when I moved here; I admit it was very hard for me to accept the responsibility thrust upon me.
However, I have now seen and accepted the system as it is, with a few minor adjustments of my own.
In my household, I am the main breadwinner, returning to Australia about half of each year to work. We have a couple of small businesses here which are more about the dignity and creativity of the women in my house than about the money they bring in. The cost of childcare alone in Australia is more than my household budget here. That was monday to friday/ 9 to 5. Here we have unlimited childcare.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby americandream » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 03:01:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')Overlaying this model of usage... blah-dy blah... no real movement in a proper relationship with this one earth of ours


Which is why I promote the Sharing and Gift Economy and why Bill Mollison promotes permacultural communities.

You seem to demand instant cultural change. I think incremental change is more plausible. A Sharing Economy and permaculture are something we can all begin working toward TODAY. But your overthrow of the status quo will always ever happen in the future.


I'm not demanding anything. Only telling you what will happen. Any reform of capitalism into any soft mutation will eventually revert back to form. It is in the nature of a capitalist, whether he be running a sweatshop in China, or selling aroma therapy in Beverly Hills, to grow his profits by any and all means, to the point where he is in a constant death struggle for market share, by any and all means. As long as any attempt to resolve capitalism's propensities remain within the capitalist model, any and all actors within its limits are subject to its immutable laws. Not next year, not in 10 years, but within the next generation at the latest, guaranteed.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby americandream » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 03:06:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') think it will be MUCH harder for us to form mutually supportive communities in the USA, because of our "paddle your own canoe" ethic. Needing or wanting help is seen as failure. Every wo/man is supposed to be an island. The idea of "give support - get support" is foreign, especially to white urban folks. There seems to be more community among some non-white and some rural folks. Americans like to think of themselves as pioneers independently striking off across the prairie (or something) but they don't realize the pioneers all helped each other or they wouldn't have survived! I like to hope some of this (fake) "independence" will change in the near future and folks will learn how to work together. :!:


That ethic is crucial to a culture founded on personal title. Capitalism evolved in Europe so it will in its current form, still cleave to its ethnic roots. However, a few generations of globalisation will see the new man emerge....without borders, more callous, more ruthless and above all, more driven by a relentless urge to grow and monopolise. A global ethic of individualism fully formed.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 04:26:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') think it will be MUCH harder for us to form mutually supportive communities in the USA, because of our "paddle your own canoe" ethic. Needing or wanting help is seen as failure. Every wo/man is supposed to be an island. The idea of "give support - get support" is foreign, especially to white urban folks. There seems to be more community among some non-white and some rural folks. Americans like to think of themselves as pioneers independently striking off across the prairie (or something) but they don't realize the pioneers all helped each other or they wouldn't have survived! I like to hope some of this (fake) "independence" will change in the near future and folks will learn how to work together. :!:


That ethic is crucial to a culture founded on personal title. Capitalism evolved in Europe so it will in its current form, still cleave to its ethnic roots. However, a few generations of globalisation will see the new man emerge....without borders, more callous, more ruthless and above all, more driven by a relentless urge to grow and monopolise. A global ethic of individualism fully formed.

I believe Thomas Jefferson put it best: "Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains"

I believe in doing a grab-bag of permaculture and biointensive agriculture. I have over 1 acre of woods, which I am going to use coppicing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing on. The acre+ of formerly grass is being converted into a mix of annuals and perennials.

The blueberry bed area has a mix of blueberry, cranberry, strawberry & pussy willows, and various annuals and herbs. The adjacent fruit tree area (mostly dwarfs), which is shaped kind of like a [ bracket, has 3 apple trees, 3 cherry trees, 2 peach trees, 2 pear trees, 1 plum tree, 6 fig trees (3 varieties), 2 pomegrante trees, various hazelnut bushes (mostly eta & theta), pawpaws, persimmons, and mulberries. The last 4 are located near the walnuts which are a mix of old established trees and smaller ones. To this will be added quinces, medlars, jujube and possibly chequer tree. Mayhaw trees for the swampier areas. The more exotic fruit trees tend to be planted on the lower part of the ridge that runs along the northeast (seems to get the most sun, shielded from northern winds)

Above this, up on top the hill which follows the road, is a hedge of Rosa rugosa roses, thuja green giant trees & various blackberries, raspberries & soon hawthorne, oleaster and soapberry.

The area inside the [ is for agriculture and will be for sets of the 7-bed crop rotation system I used. (I utilize an informal system of 7-raised beds with alfalfa at the top & center of each bed... corn & mostly various root crops like potatoes, onions, leeks, garlic, radishes, turnips, maca etc) There are 3 separate areas for agriculture west, north(between fruit trees & stream), and east.

In the east area is the perennial vegetable bed, consisting mainly of asparagus & rhubarb. Annuals like tomatoes, carrots and radishes are grown here also. More perennials are going to be added in 2011, like seakale, good king henry, french sorrel, Elecampane, maybe quamash, perpetual spinach, artichokes.

Various other garden beds are set up, such as the mint garden, main herb garden, the shaded-herb garden, sweatlodge-tea garden (sage, mugwort, wormwood, tea, camelia) and misc stuff like saffron and Jerusalem artichokes.

The southwestern grass area is where I have the chicken run for araucana and buff orpington chickens. This area gets a bit of shade but the grass still grows tall but not that suitable for agriculture so I am using it as chicken forage area. In between the chicken forage area and the western agricultural area, is the vine area about a dozen various grapes and kiwi fruit.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby americandream » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 06:08:39

Management of our planet in a sane manner is good. However, even before we embark down that road, we will have to root out that pernicious madness. That insanity that sees the most noblest of sentiments fall before the impulse to grow, and profit and then explode in a mad surge of toxic gigantism that sees once quite benign entities bestriding this planet like rapacious overlords. Overlords oblivious to all but their CEO's and shareholders. Once that is behind us, these sorts of activites can make a real difference.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 09:46:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')You seem to demand instant cultural change. I think incremental change is more plausible.


Which is what Transition Towns are all about. People here are still too fixated on all-or-nothing quick-fixes.

If quick fixes are really what the timing and pace of collapse will require, then people here will just have to concede that we're and adopt a survivalist stance.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 10:29:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Which is what Transition Towns are all about. People here are still too fixated on all-or-nothing quick-fixes.

If quick fixes are really what the timing and pace of collapse will require, then people here will just have to concede that we're fucked and adopt a survivalist stance.



I think the Transition Town movement is fantastic. It's an excellent incremental step. There's plenty of choices how to transition, permaculture could be included in a Transition plan, similar to Agraria: http://www.communitysolution.org/agraria.html

I'm not into the whole survivalist thing, personally. I think it's likely to be a dead end. I've even seen people say they will only include immediate family members in their future survivalist community. That's certainly a genetic dead-end! 8O
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 15 Nov 2010, 13:07:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'M')anagement of our planet in a sane manner is good. However, even before we embark down that road, we will have to root out that pernicious madness.



I completely disagree, because that means we won't do anything. We can't just sit around waiting for the world to change. I never suggest anything I am not doing or willing to do myself. I don't think suggesting we sit around until "we root out that pernicious madness" is at all helpful. And you're doing nothing to root out "that pernicious madness" yourself, in fact, you're profiting by it with the way you make your living.

Here's a neat thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao

Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hftgWcD- ... re=related
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Pops » Mon 15 Nov 2010, 13:33:02

No swearing please.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby Narz » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 21:58:13

Ludi, I have heard of people growing up to 70% of their own calories (with some left over the barter/sell) however, on a large scale I haven't heard of whole villages being fed with permaculture. You might be growing your own beans but your neighbor gets most of his from the grocery store.

You seem to have a definition of permaculture being anti-cities (towns with over 5,000 population IIRC). If villages couldn't grow beyond that point perhaps it would be the solution but since an ever expanding # of people do live in cities & probably can't meet all their dietary needs locally (or even regionally) it has to be said that permaculture is only part of the solution.
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Re: Overview of our situation and what we could do about it

Unread postby americandream » Tue 16 Nov 2010, 22:07:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'M')anagement of our planet in a sane manner is good. However, even before we embark down that road, we will have to root out that pernicious madness.



I completely disagree, because that means we won't do anything. We can't just sit around waiting for the world to change. I never suggest anything I am not doing or willing to do myself. I don't think suggesting we sit around until "we root out that pernicious madness" is at all helpful. And you're doing nothing to root out "that pernicious madness" yourself, in fact, you're profiting by it with the way you make your living.

Here's a neat thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao

Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hftgWcD- ... re=related



What I am saying is that in the course of agitating for a saner mode of agriculture, we also include issues such as ideology in that debate. It simply is not enough for someone to advocate better gardening without looking at how that garden is owned. Where the garden is held in a multiple of titles, each dedicated to exploiting their own little corner for maximum gain, it is hardly any wonder that no matter what they do, they continue to exhaust their little patch. The quest for profit is unrelenting.

So to me, this discourse is waaaay bigger than management and takes us back to our very relationship with what we are managing. Of course, calling for communism also requires that you understand communism, not someone else's take (including mine) on it.
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