[americandream]

I have merely thrown down the gauntlet. You have no answer so you squeal like a drugged out moron. The same moron who periodically posts Tea Party Republican racist propaganda and religious voodoo.

A better advertisment for drug prohibition I have yet to meet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou have not answered my quite reasonable and legitimate queries and therefore your position fails and weed is shown to be what it is

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') just post interesting news on a discussion board. You don't know anything about me. You seem to have a lot of fragmented, disjointed thoughts in your posts. You can't argue very well... inarticulate. You don't seem to know much beyond a few tired, old memes. It's boring.

[Sixstrings]

Regarding the subject at hand..

This is in an interesting development out in California. First we hear about Oakland PD not responding to most crimes, now we hear about these industrial scale pot farms starting up. Cali is clearly headed towards for de facto legalization.. it's already the case that really anybody can get a medical marijuana card.

As for the medicinal usefulness of marijuana.. it really does help folks who are sick from a variety of diseases. Increases the appetite, good for inflammation, good for stress. And, it's always been true that alcohol is a far greater public safety problem than marijuana.

So I'm ambivalent about full legalization. I don't like the stuff myself, but I don't feel it's my place to deny somebody a mostly harmless good time. I say mostly harmless because new research did come out about a year ago showing that marijuana use can trigger mental illness in some folks who have a family history of mental issues. So that gives me pause -- not enough to say marijuana should be illegal, but enough for me to say it isn't totally harmless.

And what's definitely obvious is nobody should be going to jail over marijuana. It's pure hypocrisy -- when they do their polygraphs, most police departments don't use past marijuana use as a reason not to hire. So you have a situation where folks are doing hard time for providing a product that most Americans have used at some point. And now with de facto legalization in so many states, it's just ridiculous to put anyone in jail over this.

P.S. has anyone noticed how OBSESSED cnbc is with pot? Seems like every time I go to that site there's a "marijuana, inc." story on there.

[americandream]

I just wish these cornucopians would give me a straight answer about resourcing rather than attack my intelligence. Even a simple we believe in the Singularity of something out of nothing would suffice rather than this evasiveness.

As for drugs, they tend to encourage indiscipline and I don't think we have the luxury of being able to support wide spread lackadaisykilness. Such exp[ectations were sustained by a cheap oil culture. One has to only to venture to Jamaica to see the interface of marijuana, poverty and crime.

We are a species under threat and a lack of order, excessive greed and general wishful thinking with a dose of drug and religion indiced apathy is destroying us.

My local town is awash with the drug culture and the wide scale dysfunction that induces.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'R')egarding the subject at hand..

This is in an interesting development out in California. First we hear about Oakland PD not responding to most crimes, now we hear about these industrial scale pot farms starting up. Cali is clearly headed towards for de facto legalization.. it's already the case that really anybody can get a medical marijuana card.

As for the medicinal usefulness of marijuana.. it really does help folks who are sick from a variety of diseases. Increases the appetite, good for inflammation, good for stress. And, it's always been true that alcohol is a far greater public safety problem than marijuana.

So I'm ambivalent about full legalization. I don't like the stuff myself, but I don't feel it's my place to deny somebody a mostly harmless good time. I say mostly harmless because new research did come out about a year ago showing that marijuana use can trigger mental illness in some folks who have a family history of mental issues. So that gives me pause -- not enough to say marijuana should be illegal, but enough for me to say it isn't totally harmless.

And what's definitely obvious is nobody should be going to jail over marijuana. It's pure hypocrisy -- when they do their polygraphs, most police departments don't use past marijuana use as a reason not to hire. So you have a situation where folks are doing hard time for providing a product that most Americans have used at some point. And now with de facto legalization in so many states, it's just ridiculous to put anyone in jail over this.

P.S. has anyone noticed how OBSESSED cnbc is with pot? Seems like every time I go to that site there's a "marijuana, inc." story on there.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I') just wish these cornucopians would give me a straight answer about resourcing rather than attack my intelligence. Even a simple we believe in the Singularity of something out of nothing would suffice rather than this evasiveness.

[eastbay]

It's going to require some very heavily armed well-paid non-pot smoking private mercenary thugs to guard and defend these larger growing operations especially if they locate in Oakland where the cops just might be too busy to respond to a robbery.

That's all I have to say about this.

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'Y')ou have no answer so you squeal like a drugged out moron. The same moron who periodically posts Tea Party Republican racist propaganda and religious voodoo.

A better advertisment for drug prohibition I have yet to meet.

[americandream]

Sorry yeahbut. Being South African and from Natal (although I reside in New Zealand), marijuana has been a part of my cultural experience a lot longer than the average kiwi. And it's a bloody blight on a community. I still have a brother in Durban who is a casualty of dagga, totally off his rocker. The smokers around here in my neighbourhood show many of the symptoms I am familiar with.

How many friends do I have back home who have been seriously messed up by dagga. I wouldn't know where to start. And many of them invariably end up sounding disconnected like timmac. Total fruit loops, political lunatics and personally, with absolutely no sense of any limits.

I am utterly against any narcotic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'Y')ou have no answer so you squeal like a drugged out moron. The same moron who periodically posts Tea Party Republican racist propaganda and religious voodoo.

A better advertisment for drug prohibition I have yet to meet.

[yeahbut]

Sorry to hear about your bro mate. I too know someone who went totally gaga from smoking pot, altho it has to said he smoked unbelievable quantaties, an alcoholic equivalent of his consumption would be someone drinking two or three litres of spirits per day. However, practically everyone I know from my school days smoked pot at some point, and some still do smoke a little. None of them have come to grief in any way, and most have full and happy lives. I guess this just proves the uselessness of anecdote, and the need for comprehensive clinical studies. 'I knew a guy' doesn't cut it.

It's also worth pointing out that my friend managed to destroy himself despite marijuana being illegal- the law did nothing to stop his access to the drug, only access to possible help.

Having said all that, I'm afraid that if you drink alcohol, in my opinion your opposition to marijuana makes you a hypocrite. If you don't take a drink now and then, then all well and good. But if you do, and you are opposed to pot on the grounds that some people abuse it and damage themselves, that is an essentially indefensible position as I see it. If you truly feel that way, you must immediately start agitating for the prohibition of alcohol. Most people consume alcohol without doing too much harm to themselves or others, but a substantial minority cause the most appalling litany of damage of all kinds. The undeniable fact is that most people who have tried pot or continue to use it are just fine, while a few aren't. Same as with booze.

And then of course there is basic logic. Marijuana is already used by many, many NZers despite its illegality. Decriminalisation would stop huge numbers of them going to prison, take a massive revenue source away from gangs, stop the cops wasting time and taxpayer $ chasing smokers and growers, and allow proper treatment of those with addictions that are blighting their lives. Prohibition is a deeply harmful and utterly ineffective policy IMO. As with so many other absurdities in our society, I have little confidence that rationality will ever be applied to this subject.

[americandream]

The legalisation of marijuana yeahbut is way down on my list of priorities. The fact that it is something of a significant political issue in the West whilst we send our troops to resource rich far off places such as Afghanistan and East Timor where whole populations are held hostage, bothers me to a greater degree. We have programmes like Tour of Duty on at prime time whilst certain political elements elevate smoking marijuana to a major political issue in the Western world. Where are all the demonstrations against our troops in Afghanistan whilst the bogus left whine on about the right to get stoned?

On the science of whether it is safe to smoke or not, I have yet to meet one dope smoker who was not dislocated from reality to one degree or another. By and large, the demeanour of your average pot smoker is one of bored indifference, apathy, smugness and general disinterest , to downright paranoia and aggression when it comes to political issues such as foreign adventures and politics generally so I do will have to differ with you on the so called benign nature of weed or its comparisons with alcohol. The fact that it's safety has not yet been conclusively determined one way or another (although there are a number of studies that suggest that it does distort reality) does not detract from my real life experiences with the narcortic culture in an increasingly aggressive, domineering and narcissistic West.

We'd might as well leave the issue there as it clearly is a major issue of freedom for you whereas for me, the greater issue is getting our troops out of poor, resource laden third world states than the right to run away from the reality of what my country really is up to, with reality altering drugs.

[Pops]

Here is the deal kids, if you can't discuss whatever topic without what has become your usual ad hom bickering, simply pass it by and go on to something else - otherwise I'll give you a couple of weeks vacation to find somewhere else to post.

[timmac]

So a few knuckleheads will use to much POT and thats the reason not to make it legal, but many of you will allow alcohol with all its problems and say nothing like one certain poster here that I won't mention his name.

The positives about legal POT out ways the negative of legal POT, if you do not support legal POT than you support the Corporations and the Drug Cartel [fact]..

I would rather support the local POT grower, jobs and more local taxes and help bring back the HEMP business than continue the way we have been with the illegal trade, violence and jail times that costs millions in taxes......

Why would you not want Legal Pot, unless you want to help bring down America with drug cartels, violence, etc..
[commies want to bring down America ]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ot is NOT harmful to the human body or mind. Marijuana does NOT pose a threat to the general public. Marijuana is very much a danger to the oil companies, alcohol, tobacco industries and a large number of chemical corporations. Various big businesses, with plenty of dollars and influence, have suppressed the truth from the people.

…POT IS ILLEGAL BECAUSE BILLIONAIRES WANT TO REMAIN BILLIONAIRES!

Did you know, it is estimated that hemp has approximately 25,000 uses? From food, paint and fuel to clothing and construction materials, hemp is used. There are even hemp fibres in your Red Rose® and Lipton® tea bags. And several cars made today contain hemp.

The oldest relic of human industry is a piece of hemp fabric (canvas) found in ancient Mesopotamia dating back to approximately 8000 B.C. The oldest surviving piece of paper was made over 2000 years ago in China and was also made from hemp fibre. In 2500 B.C. the pharaohs used hemp in the construction of the great pyramids.

Hemp was so important in England in the 16th century that King Henry VIII passed a law in 1553 which fined farmers who failed to grow at least one quarter acre of hemp for every 60 acres of arable land they owned. There was even a time in history for over 200 years when you could pay your taxes in America with hemp. In 1850 there were more than 8,300 hemp farms in the United States.

Every 3.6 seconds someone in the world dies of hunger. Hemp seeds are the most nutritious and economical solution to end world hunger. With an 80 percent concentration of "good fats" our bodies need for good health maintenance and protein with all eight amino acids plus optimum dietary fibre, hemp truly is a "perfect balance" food source.

[timmac]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')t's going to require some very heavily armed well-paid non-pot smoking private mercenary thugs to guard and defend these larger growing operations especially if they locate in Oakland where the cops just might be too busy to respond to a robbery.

That's all I have to say about this.

[timmac]

Legalize Marijuana and Hemp and lets rebuild America

Why would anyone continue to be against this unless they wanted to help destroy America.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here did the word 'marijuana' come from? In the mid 1930s, the M-word was created to tarnish the good image and phenomenal history of the hemp plant...as you will read. The facts cited here, with references, are generally verifiable in the Encyclopedia Britannica which was printed on hemp paper for 150 years:

* All schoolbooks were made from hemp or flax paper until the 1880s; Hemp Paper Reconsidered, Jack Frazier, 1974.

* It was LEGAL TO PAY TAXES WITH HEMP in America from 1631 until the early 1800s; LA Times, Aug. 12, 1981.

* REFUSING TO GROW HEMP in America during the 17th and 18th Centuries WAS AGAINST THE LAW! You could be jailed in Virginia for refusing to grow hemp from 1763 to 1769; Hemp in Colonial Virginia, G. M. Herdon.

* George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers GREW HEMP; Washington and Jefferson Diaries. Jefferson smuggled hemp seeds from China to France then to America.

* Benjamin Franklin owned one of the first paper mills in America and it processed hemp. Also, the War of 1812 was fought over hemp. Napoleon wanted to cut off Moscow's export to England; Emperor Wears No Clothes, Jack Herer.

* For thousands of years, 90% of all ships' sails and rope were made from hemp. The word 'canvas' is Dutch for cannabis; Webster's New World Dictionary.

* 80% of all textiles, fabrics, clothes, linen, drapes, bed sheets, etc. were made from hemp until the 1820s with the introduction of the cotton gin.

* The first Bibles, maps, charts, Betsy Ross's flag, the first drafts of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were made from hemp; U.S. Government Archives.

* The first crop grown in many states was hemp. 1850 was a peak year for Kentucky producing 40,000 tons. Hemp was the largest cash crop until the 20th Century; State Archives.

* Oldest known records of hemp farming go back 5000 years in China, although hemp industrialization probably goes back to ancient Egypt.

* Rembrants, Gainsboroughs, Van Goghs as well as most early canvas paintings were principally painted on hemp linen.

* In 1916, the U.S. Government predicted that by the 1940s all paper would come from hemp and that no more trees need to be cut down. Government studies report that 1 acre of hemp equals 4.1 acres of trees. Plans were in the works to implement such programs; Department of Agriculture

* Quality paints and varnishes were made from hemp seed oil until 1937. 58,000 tons of hemp seeds were used in America for paint products in 1935; Sherman Williams Paint Co. testimony before Congress against the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act.

* Henry Ford's first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, 'grown from the soil,' had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel; Popular Mechanics, 1941.

* Hemp called 'Billion Dollar Crop.' It was the first time a cash crop had a business potential to exceed a billion dollars; Popular Mechanics, Feb., 1938.

* Mechanical Engineering Magazine (Feb. 1938) published an article entitled 'The Most Profitable and Desirable Crop that Can be Grown.' It stated that if hemp was cultivated using 20th Century technology, it would be the single largest agricultural crop in the U.S. and the rest of the world.

[americandream]

Pops has asked us to go easy on the ad hominems, so you might want to go easy on the schoolyard insults timmac. It's communist, not commie.

Marijuana eats a society from within. It destroys its social fabric and encourages slothfulness, indolence, indiscipline and a general attitude of lawlessness and primitivistic thinking. Doubt my word? Look at places such as Jamaica and other regions where these drugs proliferate and take note of the social conditions that prevail there.

It is not for us, as taxpayers, to make concessions with criminals by legalising them. They are parasitic and should be treated as such, preferably with hard labour and a long stretch in a gulag. Of course, where theres money to be made, the ever so adaptable system of capitalism will quite happily embrace criminal behaviour, even one that saps a society of the very vitality needed to drive perpetual growth. Capitalist are not noted for their vision however.

And before I get a lesson on the antiquity of hemp, let not forget that narcotics and religion go hand in hand in man's disordered past.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'S')o a few knuckleheads will use to much POT and thats the reason not to make it legal, but many of you will allow alcohol with all its problems and say nothing like one certain poster here that I won't mention his name.

The positives about legal POT out ways the negative of legal POT, if you do not support legal POT than you support the Corporations and the Drug Cartel [fact]..

I would rather support the local POT grower, jobs and more local taxes and help bring back the HEMP business than continue the way we have been with the illegal trade, violence and jail times that costs millions in taxes......

Why would you not want Legal Pot, unless you want to help bring down America with drug cartels, violence, etc..
[commies want to bring down America ]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ot is NOT harmful to the human body or mind. Marijuana does NOT pose a threat to the general public. Marijuana is very much a danger to the oil companies, alcohol, tobacco industries and a large number of chemical corporations. Various big businesses, with plenty of dollars and influence, have suppressed the truth from the people.

…POT IS ILLEGAL BECAUSE BILLIONAIRES WANT TO REMAIN BILLIONAIRES!

Did you know, it is estimated that hemp has approximately 25,000 uses? From food, paint and fuel to clothing and construction materials, hemp is used. There are even hemp fibres in your Red Rose® and Lipton® tea bags. And several cars made today contain hemp.

The oldest relic of human industry is a piece of hemp fabric (canvas) found in ancient Mesopotamia dating back to approximately 8000 B.C. The oldest surviving piece of paper was made over 2000 years ago in China and was also made from hemp fibre. In 2500 B.C. the pharaohs used hemp in the construction of the great pyramids.

Hemp was so important in England in the 16th century that King Henry VIII passed a law in 1553 which fined farmers who failed to grow at least one quarter acre of hemp for every 60 acres of arable land they owned. There was even a time in history for over 200 years when you could pay your taxes in America with hemp. In 1850 there were more than 8,300 hemp farms in the United States.

Every 3.6 seconds someone in the world dies of hunger. Hemp seeds are the most nutritious and economical solution to end world hunger. With an 80 percent concentration of "good fats" our bodies need for good health maintenance and protein with all eight amino acids plus optimum dietary fibre, hemp truly is a "perfect balance" food source.

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'M')arijuana eats a society from within. It destroys its social fabric and encourages slothfulness, indolence, indiscipline and a general attitude of lawlessness and primitivistic thinking. Doubt my word? Look at places such as Jamaica and other regions where these drugs proliferate and take note of the social conditions that prevail there.

[americandream]

yeahbut

I am sure you are a decent fellow. However, politically, you and I are poles apart.

Contemporary Western culture is one of self-indulgent exceptionalism whilst the world burns around us. So to the extent that I view the entire drugs and youth culture that piggy backs on it, as nothing more than a fetid sore that needs to be lanced from humanity, along with religion and capitalism, it is in that context. Nothing personal intended.

I think there is a tendency to equate Marxist beliefs with sloppy liberalism. It isn't. There is much sacrifice expected of us and some of its effects may appear cruel and arbitrary.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'M')arijuana eats a society from within. It destroys its social fabric and encourages slothfulness, indolence, indiscipline and a general attitude of lawlessness and primitivistic thinking. Doubt my word? Look at places such as Jamaica and other regions where these drugs proliferate and take note of the social conditions that prevail there.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
Marijuana eats a society from within. It destroys its social fabric and encourages slothfulness, indolence, indiscipline and a general attitude of lawlessness and primitivistic thinking. Doubt my word? Look at places such as Jamaica and other regions where these drugs proliferate and take note of the social conditions that prevail there.

And before I get a lesson on the antiquity of hemp, let not forget that narcotics and religion go hand in hand in man's disordered past.

[Carlhole]

Who cares about anybody's opinion on the matter here?

It's not up to anybody on this forum to decide whether legalizing pot is a good idea or not. It's up to California voter.

The point is, California voters will probably vote to legalize it and it will set an important precedent for the rest of the nation. The article that I originally posted had to do with some of the political ramifications for California - including legitimizing the operations of the Mexican Drug Cartels and what effect this might have on politics. That's the issue I was interested in when I posted the article.

Also, it's completely irrelevant whether or not you disapprove of pot. It's illegal status has NOT prevented it from become an $8 billion industry in California alone. Pot is not hard to come by at all. It's available just about anywhere. What's California going to do about it? Make it more illegal and watch it become a $12 billion dollar industry?

The idea is to legalize the sh*t so that the bad guys aren't making all that tax-free money, free up the police and court systems, disallow any advertising, and use some of the funds for anti-pot-smoking advertising. That's what a responsible state would do. The Drug War has already been tried and its a bust. It doesn't work.

[americandream]

Why not legalise pedophilia so that all those bad child porn merchants are not making vast sums of tax free money? Seems to me that an equal case can be made for another set of laws designed to protect the citizen but which clearly are losing vast revenues. I am sure this would find favour amongst the free marketeers.

All laws legalising pot will be reversed in due course. In the meantime, I EXPECT a rising class of petty bourgeoisie, all across the world, employed in peddling hemp and its derivatives, to be agitating for its legalisation so I would not fret. You will get your commodities market in cannabis. It is the perfect market, like cigarettes, with it's addictive qualities and captive market character. Good source of revenues as well for the bailed out markets. The more you hook, the bigger the profits. The other applications for hemp are just windown dressing seeing as the vast bulk of of manufacturing is veering away from agri. primary produce towards lab manufactured synthetics. Consequently, I simply refuse to join that cockeyed bandwagon of liberals who seem to think that this is meaningful politicking.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'W')ho cares about anybody's opinion on the matter here?

It's not up to anybody on this forum to decide whether legalizing pot is a good idea or not. It's up to California voter.

The point is, California voters will probably vote to legalize it and it will set an important precedent for the rest of the nation. The article that I originally posted had to do with some of the political ramifications for California - including legitimizing the operations of the Mexican Drug Cartels and what effect this might have on politics. That's the issue I was interested in when I posted the article.

Also, it's completely irrelevant whether or not you disapprove of pot. It's illegal status has NOT prevented it from become an $8 billion industry in California alone. Pot is not hard to come by at all. It's available just about anywhere. What's California going to do about it? Make it more illegal and watch it become a $12 billion dollar industry?

The idea is to legalize the sh*t so that the bad guys aren't making all that tax-free money, free up the police and court systems, disallow any advertising, and use some of the funds for anti-pot-smoking advertising. That's what a responsible state would do. The Drug War has already been tried and its a bust. It doesn't work.