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Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 11 Sep 2006, 18:54:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miniTAX', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'P')roduction is still at a plateau.

A production plateau? What are your numbers ?


The latest from the Oil Drum.

EIA insisting on plateau

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ight now, May 2005 is the winner, but December 2005 and April 2006 are statistical ties. Minor revisions and changes to methodology could very easily change which is exactly the winner (indeed it was December 2005 for a while). But anyway, the oil industry doesn't seem to quite be able to tip it past the 85mbpd mark (on a combined agency basis) for the time being.


http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/8/3/31559/92662
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby Retsel » Sun 29 Oct 2006, 07:09:59

An interesting renewable energy technology has been developed by a professor at the University of Arkansas and is being marketed under the name of BRI. It combusts biomass and municipal solid waste to produce energy through two different pathways. 1) The heat generated from the combustion is used to produce electricity. 2) The combustion produces syngas which is used to produce ethanol using bacteria.

A pilot plant exists for this technology, and there is likely to be a full scale plant built in the next several years. This technology seems to be very promising.

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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 29 Oct 2006, 10:54:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Retsel', ' ')A pilot plant exists for this technology, and there is likely to be a full scale plant built in the next several years. This technology seems to be very promising.


There are many technologies that seem promising. The problem is scale.

In the IEA's World Energy Outlolok 2005, they predict renewable energy consumption will increase by 1.8%/year by 2030, a 60% increase.

However, the share of renewables in global energy consumption will remain largely unchanged from it's current 14%. Traditional biomass which accounts for 7% will decline as people move to fossil fuels like coal. Shares of renewables from geothermal, solar, and wind will have the most rapid increase at 6.2%/year.

But, because they start from a very small base (<1%) they will still be the smallest component of renewable energy in 2030 with a share of only 1.7% of world primary energy demand.

Few seem to grasp the ominous portent of these facts.

Renewable's share can never catch up to displace current use, much less meet new demand.

Where is our crash course in renewables to change this?

It's not even on the horizon.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Tue 31 Oct 2006, 01:12:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby zensui-org » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 01:05:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MC2', 'T')oo late.

Different scales - oil can't be replaced by anything in the current system. We need a "new model." One that has far fewer people...


A population decline is necessary. The question is if it will be because of a "die-off", less breeding or a combination of both.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MC2', '
')That said, agree we need more alternative energy. One key will be decentralizing energy production. When every house can generate most of its own electricity needs, we'll have accomplished a big part of the mission.


Decentralizing energy production is a great idea. IMO, infonomics will replace the current economical system. Most activities will be local, but the world will still be interconected - mostly information. Solar power is DC, like most electronics. Efficiency is also noteworthy (solar power used in electronics without an AC adapter).

...renewable sources of energy doesn't mean that we aren't in "interesting times", just that there's some hope for "civilization to survive".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', '
')I see oil as seperate from electricity, and I don't think we will fill the gap with renewables. We will be forced to used less oil on SUV's and air travel. Instead we will embrace bicycles, trains, oxen, horses, mass transit, buses, and motorcycles.


What about air-powered boats for transatlantic transportation?

For further reading:
http://wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,695 ... _tophead_1
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0, ... wn_index_3
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby SDC » Wed 01 Nov 2006, 00:13:49

The problem with renewables is that no-one will realize we need them until things really begin to go to hell, at which point very few people will be able to afford said renewables.

I think that Nuclear could support our current population and then some, but those plants require a lot of cash and resources to produce, which will not be available when people finally realize that said plants are necessary.
Wind has a great EROEI and is very cheap, but it only really works well in certain areas, and it has the same problem as all renewables - nobody will realize it's necessary until it's too late.
Hydro power is in many ways without parallel, but since our economy is too well off at the moment, nobody realizes that there is any problem with energy, and therefore Hydro is declining just to preserve the populations of some fish.

If they knew that their survival depended on such plants, they'd be more receptive to such things. Unfortunately, they won't know until it's too late. So, chances are, it'll be NIMBYism until we're all too impoverished to build any degree of renewable infrastructure.
I might be wrong.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 09 Nov 2006, 22:20:38

California Proposition 87: Funds for Alternative Energy

Yes: 45%
No: 55%

If it won't fly in California, it won't fly anywhere.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby TigPil » Wed 03 Jan 2007, 17:56:57

The problem with predicting the growth of renewable energy is a lack of understanding about the infrastructure to manufacture the energy producing equipment. Since renewable energy has been relatively expensive and fossil fuels relatively cheap until a few years ago, there has been minimal incentive to invest in infrastructure for manufacturing the means of producing that energy. And when there was ramping demand for wind turbines and solar cells in the last few years, there have been shortfalls in manufacturing capacity or raw materials (e.g. refined silicon shortage).

There have been two scenarios presented above that work off these poor assumptions about infrastructure:

1) The first scenario is that renewable energy grows at historical trends based on the IEA data. The absolute growth in installed Gigawatts is wrong since it is simply the absolute amount of renewable generation capacity that could be built with the infrastructure available in recent years. Under any scenario of increasing need (caused by the realization of peak oil or simply by increased fossil fuel prices despite continued obliviousness) the infrastructure will increase from current levels. This makes linear estimations inaccurate since increases in the underlying infrastructure will represent significant non-linearities in the growth rate of renewables.

2) The second scenario takes the exponential growth rate and projects it into the future to get 60% renewable energy at a specific date. This is wrong because it bumps against the upper limit of investable infrastructure. The amount of infrastructure for generating renewable energy generation capcaity will be capped by the annual replacement requirements for existing infrastructure, as well as the potential amortization of the capital stock. This means that if we need to replace 3% of energy generation capacity per year, assuming a 33 year replacement cycle for our energy generation infrastructure, the capacity to produce such generation equipment will peak at that 3% replacement rate. Taking a pure exponential extrapolation means that growth exceeds that 3% cap for some of the later years of the model, making little economic sense. While it may be possible to reach some levels of overinvestment due to a business cycle peak or government subsidies, it is unlikely the overshoot would be more than a percentage of the cap itself, i.e. a 30% overshoot yields a production cap of 4%.

So in terms of renewable growth rates, the correct questions to ask are:

1) Assuming the occurence of peak oil (or a sustained price shock in fossil fuel prices even with the continued denial of peak oil status) how long would it take to build the infrastructure for building renewable generation capacity quickly? Could we get to the 3% cap in 5 years? If not then how long would it take? How much capacity would we have after a 1 year, 3 year, 5 year crash program? The actual renewable production growth is then a function dependent upon this step function in the growth of infrastructure for generating said capacity.

2) How long would it take to reach equilibrium between the decline in non-renewable consumption (initially oil and perhaps natural gas but eventually other non-renewables) and the increase in renewable capacity? Lets say that the answer to 1 above is that peak infrastructure capacity is a 3% replacement rate and it takes 10 years to reach this. If at that point the loss in oil production is also 3% per year then renewable generation would be able to replace the decline in oil output on an annual basis without further demand destruction.

3) What happends in the interim between the peak oil event and the end of the crash program for building out renewable infrstructure? This is largely dependent on how long the crash program takes and how much elasticity there is in energy consumption. This gets into the complex subject of demand destruction, which can be subdivided into several types.

The first type of demand destruction is constructive (lets call it conservation) in that it has no negative economic impact. For example, I choose to drive my SUV 10% less thus using 10% less gasoline which happens to be 10% more expensive. The net result has no negative impact on my economic activities nor any on those of the oil producers and distributors, domestic or foreign. At most it is an inconvenience for me but has no impact on monetized GDP. The second type of demand destruction is destructive to the economy (lets call it contraction or substitution). There can be several examples of this with different economic repercussions. One case is that I drive 25% less thus using 25% less gasoline which is still 10% more expensive. In this case I am depriving the oil distribution and production companies of their revenue and using the money elsewhere. The more likely scenario however is that I drive 25% less when the price of gas is 50% higher. In this case I am actually spending more on gas and am then forced to curtail my discretionary expenditures elsewhere.

Getting back to the renewables topic, the nature of the transition period that was asked about in 3 above is dependent upon the absolute sizes of the conservation, substitution and contraction windows. Again to provide a concrete example with some hypothetical numbers, lets say the US economy has a conservation potential of 10%, then at a 3% loss in non-renewable supply yields a conservation window of just over 3 years. If it takes 10 years to get the infrastructure for renewable generation equipment in place then we would still have about 7 years of substitution/contraction to deal with, at whatever rate GDP contracts for a 3% contraction in oil supply. These numbers are all hypothetical of course and I don't pretend to know what some of the actual figures may be with any certainly. At most I would venture to guess that the time to build infrastructure will be in excess of the conservation window so some contraction and substitution will be inevitable. Nor is it wholly realistic to treat the conservation window and the contraction window as distinct for a homogenous US economy. Both types of demand destruction will coexist and have varied effects on different regions and strata of the US economy.

So far I've said nothing about what these renewable sources are. Primarily I am talking about solar, either in the form of photovoltaics or concentrated solar power (CSP). It was mentioned earlier that photovoltaics are not yet a good investment as the cost per KwH is around $.20 or slightly more. In certain non-US markets (Germany and Japan) the cost of retail electricity is already higher so PV is a practical alternative. Peak oil would substantially increase electricity prices in the US (currently around $.08 per KwH), which would make a PV a better investment. Wind is obviously cheaper with prices as low as $.03 per KwH but the intermittency factor makes it difficult to scale wind past 20% of total electricity production. Domestic solar installations often include a battery system so are better able to deal with intermittency. CSP is another solar alternative which has reached production costs of around $.11 per KwH and when used to heat a molten salt compound is also better suited to deal with intermittency. Geothermal and tidal are limited to specific locations. Biofuels are limited by arable land and the need to produce food. While we currently produce a surplus in this respect, crop yields will drop with the decline in fossil fuel based agriculture and put significant pressure on all land currently under cultivation. Regardless of how we look at it there won't be enough arable land to produce substantial quantities of biofuel. Finally, coal and nuclear have exogenous costs that are not part of their current published generating costs and neither is renewable in any case and are at best stopgap measures.

The composite renewable picture would then be 15% hydro, 20% wind and 65% solar (split between 25% CSP and 40% PV for the sake of cost). This would mean an average generation cost of $.12(.05*.15 + .04 *.2 + .11 * .25 + .2 * .4). Retail costs would be higher of course since some of this would be subject to transmission costs.

Everything I've said has been about electricity generation. What about the transportation sector? I am amazed how the comments of the Hirsch report are so easily taken as gospel about the future of electric cars. Hirsch excludes electric cars as a mitigation option solely on the basis of consumer preferences:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he effort was a failure because existing
batteries did not provide the vehicle range and performance that customers
demanded. In the future, electricity storage may improve enough to win
consumer acceptance of electric automobiles. In addition, extremely high
gasoline prices may cause some consumers to find electric automobiles more
acceptable, especially for around-town use. Such a shift in public preferences is
unpredictable, so electric vehicles cannot now be projected as a significant offset
to future gasoline use.


Will consumers continue to object to vehicle range and performance issues when the price of gasoline is over $5 per gallon, over $10? This seems like one of Hirsch's most erroneous conclusions about potential mitigation factors. Demand destruction of every type will result in increasing changes to consumer preferences, simply by curtailing economic and non-economic options. And here we have a technology that is know to work but is ignored simply on the basis of consumer preferences. If we can produce enough renewable electricity and the only economically reasonable option is for people to drive electric cars then people will switch to electric cars, regardless of the inconveniences involved.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 10 Jan 2007, 00:37:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', ' ')1) Assuming the occurence of peak oil (or a sustained price shock in fossil fuel prices even with the continued denial of peak oil status) how long would it take to build the infrastructure for building renewable generation capacity quickly? Could we get to the 3% cap in 5 years? If not then how long would it take? How much capacity would we have after a 1 year, 3 year, 5 year crash program? The actual renewable production growth is then a function dependent upon this step function in the growth of infrastructure for generating said capacity.

And just where does the energy come from to do this?

Remember, we are in a declining energy environment. And one of escalating prices. These new forms will be energy consumers until on-line long enough to repay the energy required to put them on-line.

Decades, in some cases. Where will this "spare" energy come from? I have addressed this in many threads.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby Doly » Wed 10 Jan 2007, 07:44:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Remember, we are in a declining energy environment. And one of escalating prices. These new forms will be energy consumers until on-line long enough to repay the energy required to put them on-line.

Decades, in some cases.

Where will this "spare" energy come from?


From not using it in stupid things like driving one person in a huge SUV?
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 16 Jan 2007, 00:39:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Remember, we are in a declining energy environment. And one of escalating prices. These new forms will be energy consumers until on-line long enough to repay the energy required to put them on-line.

Decades, in some cases.

Where will this "spare" energy come from?


From not using it in stupid things like driving one person in a huge SUV?


So, you maintain that stupid uses of energy are not part of the economy and do not employ people?

This isn't about what is right, it is about what world we live in. Right now, that world is one of wanton wasteful conmsumption.

However, "wanton wasteful consumption" is just as much of GDP growth. Even Katrina's huge cost was part of GDP.

We can't just change horses in midstream.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby TigPil » Tue 16 Jan 2007, 02:38:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Remember, we are in a declining energy environment. And one of escalating prices. These new forms will be energy consumers until on-line long enough to repay the energy required to put them on-line.

Decades, in some cases.

Where will this "spare" energy come from?


From not using it in stupid things like driving one person in a huge SUV?


So, you maintain that stupid uses of energy are not part of the economy and do not employ people?


There are stupid uses of energy that are part of the economy and others that are not. There is definitely some elasticity in transportation. When we talk of economic contraction that refers to aggregate GDP but it is possible to have redistribution of spending.

Scenario 1

Frank earns $50k per year and spends $50k per year. Frank drives to the mall once per week to buy stuff. Frank spends X on gas for all of these trips. The price of gas doubles. Frank now goes to the mall every two weeks. Frank still spends X on gas. Frank also still spends $50k per year. Aggregate GDP remains unchanged and there is even no redistribution in this scenario.

Scenario 2

Same starting point as above. Price of gas doubles. Frank not only cuts back on his mall trips but car pools to work. Less money is spent on gasoline out of his $50k budget but all $50k is still spent. Aggregate GDP remains unchanged but some amount of money now moves from energy expenditures to other consumption categories. GDP might actually increase depending on where the spending is redirected since a lot of oil consumed in the US is an import, which subtracts from GDP.

Both scenarios reflect elasticity in energy consumption. Of course there are transportation needs that are inelastic, such as getting to work. And there is the reverse distribution scenario where the amount spent on gasoline goes up and therefore less can be spent in other areas of the economy. We don't know what the percent of elastic and inelastic demand is but there is definitely some room to reduce energy consumption without impacting GDP, especially since importing foreign oil is a drag on GDP in the first place.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 16 Jan 2007, 11:01:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', ' ')There are stupid uses of energy that are part of the economy and others that are not.


Duh?

Name a stupid use of energy that is not purchased before it is wasted or used.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby TigPil » Tue 16 Jan 2007, 17:38:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', ' ')There are stupid uses of energy that are part of the economy and others that are not.


Duh?

Name a stupid use of energy that is not purchased before it is wasted or used.


Did you even read what I wrote above about redistribution and effect of imports on GDP?

Every year the economy shrinks in some sectors and grows in others. Economists call it "creative-destruction" although that seems a bit too flowery for the process. Purchasing X instead of Y does nothing for the aggregate economy assuming that the amount purchased remains unchanged. If consumers purchase marginally less energy one year and marginally more of something else, GDP remains unchanged. These kind of shifts happen every year already and sometimes they happen with energy, especially when the price of gasoline or heating fuel or natural gas spikes. There are of course also destructive shifts of the type you are referring to but my point is that not all shifts in consumption are destructive to the aggregate economy.

For every $1 spent on oil in this country only $.40 goes into US GDP and the other $.60 cents goes to the GDP of Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Algeria, Angola, etc... So if people did nothing else but conserved on oil use, US GDP would increase and the trade deficit would narrow. This creates a very interesting national incentive for energy independence. Energy created within the country rather than imported from abroad is a net contributor to GDP while reliance on imports is a net detractor. So if for example the cost of driving an electric car charged from domestically produced renewable sources was the same as the cost of driving on gasoline, the electric option would be preferrable in terms of contributing to the national economy.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 17 Jan 2007, 00:12:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', ' ')There are stupid uses of energy that are part of the economy and others that are not.


Duh?

Name a stupid use of energy that is not purchased before it is wasted or used.


Did you even read what I wrote above about redistribution and effect of imports on GDP?


You made a statement of fact. Back it up.

Name a stupid use of energy that is not purchased before it is wasted or used.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 17 Jan 2007, 00:17:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TigPil', ' ')Scenario 1

Frank earns $50k per year and spends $50k per year. Frank drives to the mall once per week to buy stuff. Frank spends X on gas for all of these trips. The price of gas doubles. Frank now goes to the mall every two weeks. Frank still spends X on gas. Frank also still spends $50k per year. Aggregate GDP remains unchanged and there is even no redistribution in this scenario.

Scenario 2

Same starting point as above. Price of gas doubles. Frank not only cuts back on his mall trips but car pools to work. Less money is spent on gasoline out of his $50k budget but all $50k is still spent. Aggregate GDP remains unchanged but some amount of money now moves from energy expenditures to other consumption categories. GDP might actually increase depending on where the spending is redirected since a lot of oil consumed in the US is an import, which subtracts from GDP.


My lord! You haven't a clue about the relationship with GDP growth and energy, have you?

Inflation and financial speculation will be our savior? We will borrow from illusionary wealth to drive GDP? Where will the energy come from even if we have the money? Money does not drive our economy...energy does...cheap, readily available energy.

No new goods or services, just inflated prices of what we have already produced?
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby cube » Wed 17 Jan 2007, 19:40:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'C')alifornia Proposition 87: Funds for Alternative Energy

Yes: 45%
No: 55%

If it won't fly in California, it won't fly anywhere.
Being a resident of Kalifornia....I am GLAD that proposition got shot down.

BTW there's this perception that everybody in Cali is a left wing liberal. The truth is of course a little more complex.

Liberals may enjoy a clear majority vote when it comes to social issue like abortion or gay marriages but on other matters it's not so clear cut. I actually think there's a 50/50 split between conservatism vs. liberalism on economic matters in this state. In fact lets not forget that California is a "swing" state in a presidential election...unlike say Texas or New York.

Not everybody here believes the world's problems can be solved by the creation of a government program.

If you create an alternative energy infrastructure paid for (therefore completely dependant) on oil taxes, what in the world are you going to do when the oil runs out?

*smacks forhead*.......I gave up on trying to figure liberals out a long time ago. 8)
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby cube » Wed 17 Jan 2007, 19:51:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '.')..
My lord! You haven't a clue about the relationship with GDP growth and energy, have you?
...
There is hope! :lol:

Granted I haven't seen too many examples of societies with increasing economic growth coupled with decreasing energy usage....maybe there's a reason why? :P
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 07 Apr 2007, 20:33:29

Decades is the word.


Alternative energy slow to take hold

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith oil and gasoline prices pushing to new highs and global demand projected to grow faster than production capacity, consumers are understandably puzzled by an ongoing energy enigma. Simply put: Why haven’t alternative energy sources — from renewables like solar and wind power to alternative fossil fuels like coal — kicked in to take up the slack? And how long before these non-oil energy sources begin to make a difference?

“There’s just no silver bullet here," said Ryan Wiser, a scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory who specializes in the economics of renewable energy. "There is no singular technology — renewables, nuclear, what have you — that’s going to replace fossil fuels in the near future. We’re going to be talking about weaning ourselves from fossil fuels for many, many decades to come. There’s no way around it.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7549530/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut with world oil production capacity already stretched to the limit, global energy demand over the next decade will be very difficult to meet without shortages and even higher prices.


I would edit this last paragraph a bit:

But with world oil production capacity already in decline, global energy demand over the next decade will be impossible to meet even with rationing and even with higher prices to spur alternatives.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 08 Apr 2007, 04:32:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'n')flation and financial speculation will be our savior? We will borrow from illusionary wealth to drive GDP? Where will the energy come from even if we have the money? Money does not drive our economy...energy does...cheap, readily available energy.

No new goods or services, just inflated prices of what we have already produced?

The problem is, that we are in fact already doing that for about 10 years.
Growth of GDP is funded by debt rise and inflation of asset value.
Housing market is one of examples.
I don't know, how long it may last. Housing market is not so promissing anymore...

On the other hand global energy per capita going down from 1979 and yet we had some meaningful growth up to mid 1990-thies or so.
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Re: Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 20 Apr 2007, 15:17:16

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