[KillTheHumans]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreedomSlave', '
')
This site has a "Poster of the Year" vote, but can we add a vote for "Dumb-ass of the Year"?

Do all the math you want - mentally masturbate yourself until you're shooting equations from your eyesockets - but unless you can answer where that optimistic 4% comes from, you're just trying to blow smoke up your own ass.

[inculcated]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', '
')Who cares? Crude is mostly a transport issue....so we'll use electricity instead and everything that can generate it. The market will figure it out based on whether or not you want an EV, V2G, PHEV, and the electricity will come from whatever is cheapest/easiest/most convenient.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DavidFolks', ' ')We need to change the way we live, in order to live within the carrying capacity of the planet.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', ' ')We have electrical infrastructure everywhere, and extra supply can be dropped in anywhere along the line. Electricity is easy to transport, assuming you don't make it onsite.

[whereagles]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')oo many people are trying to bail the Titanic with buckets

[kmann]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'J')ohnDenver recently wrote: “Oil will peak, and it will be no big deal because we will smoothly switchover to alternatives.”

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreakOil', 'W')e need population reduction and an end to exponential economic growth.

[TheDude]

Monte's economy needs to decline?

[cube]

Scalability and Orders of Magnitude


Is this sustainable?

[BigTex]

I find MQ incredibly optimistic to believe that any significant number of people could grasp the concept of overshoot and act intelligently.

It's just not an idea that is made for mass consumption. If anything, I think it pushes many people in the other direction toward religion, technology worship or just head in the sand.

The Earth is becoming to humans what "Rat Island" is to its inhabitants.

Just like the rats have the ability to overcome many barriers to population growth and overwhelm an ecosystem, our cleverness and technology has done the same for us. Once all the sea bird eggs are gone, though (i.e., the cheap energy), the effects of the overshoot are just that much more painful.

How do we know what the limits to growth are? The masses won't know until the limit is reached. MQ imagines that telling people about it beforehand will be helpful, but it won't. What we as humans are doing is every bit as instinctive as the rats, and stands about as much chance of being stopped as controlling a rat population by putting up rat condom dispensers.

It's not that we are unable to act intelligently at the individual or group level. The problem is that higher level thinking and long term planning are mostly "full stomach" activities, and when times get tough, history usually shows that humans become more aggressive toward one another (at the tribe, society or national levels especially) and much less concerned about future generations.

I think we should all think long and hard about what "making a difference" in the context of PO means. Keep up the good work MQ (I enjoy reading your posts), but I wonder what the purpose of it is. Is it to convince us all that we are doomed? Is it to awaken us to something about which we can do nothing? Is it a call to action? If so, what is the action that should be taken? I don't disagree with your analysis or conclusions, I am just left with a sense of "now what", since I don't imagine human nature will be changing any time soon, and changing the conditions which have led us to overshoot would require such a change.

It's funny, but the thing that makes us great will be the thing that brings us down--i.e., our ability to overcome our natural predators, just like the rats. I wonder if it doesn't actually promote self-loathing to tell people that all of their instincts and desires are leading them to utter destruction. The will to build, grow populations, expand, conquer, compete, invent things, overcome natural obstacles, buy things, drive nice cars, live in nice houses, have large families....it's almost all wrong and will all collapse on itself.

Do you wonder why people are resistant to this idea? Talk about cognitive dissonance--it would be like telling the rats after they had found the Ghawar of cheese that "this will cause you to vastly overshoot, wreck the world and ultimately have a massive die-off." The rats would look at you like you were crazy.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') find MQ incredibly optimistic to believe that any significant number of people could grasp the concept of overshoot and act intelligently.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') find MQ incredibly optimistic to believe that any significant number of people could grasp the concept of overshoot and act intelligently.

[Ludi]

Thanks for your reply, BigTex.


I don't know that Monte is very optimistic either.

[KillTheHumans]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', ' ')We have electrical infrastructure everywhere, and extra supply can be dropped in anywhere along the line. Electricity is easy to transport, assuming you don't make it onsite.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IslandCrow', ' ')However, I still have the question of "are they scalable enough if combined with conservation?"

This question means that the would not have to provide as much energy as oil currently does, so there is more hope that they could get to the level required. It also asks the question of whether a program of conservation can be effective (or whether it will take more energy in the short term), and whether enough people have the foresight to do it.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', ' ') Keep up the good work MQ (I enjoy reading your posts), but I wonder what the purpose of it is.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', ' ')I just wonder if MQ appreciates the fact that if 50% of the world woke up tomorrow and fully embraced his ideas and took every possible step to mitigate PO/overshoot, I don't think it would be enough. I don't know if 80% would be enough.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', 'I') did. I paid attention all summer and didn't see blackouts, crashing grids, or anything else related to overtaxed systems even when at max load, which happened in several places during the summer.

[OneStepAtATime]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')I can't find the link, but a couple of physicists ran the numbers and found that if we reduced consumption by 25%, growth would eclipse the gains in 13 years.

Then there is Jevons' Paradox.

[FreakOil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreakOil', 'W')e need population reduction and an end to exponential economic growth.