[Tyler_JC]

Part of your property taxes go to pay for useful services from which you cannot be excluded and thus must be forced to pay for.

Example: police protection.

Every municipality has a local police department that investigates crimes, arrests offenders, keeps the peace, etc.

The mere existence of a local police station reduces crime. Even if you have never been a victim of crime, you are still better off with a police station than without it.

Moreover, police protection has a positive externality. If houses A, B and D pay for police patrols, house C still enjoys protection.

How are you supposed to pay for a local police force if everyone can choose to "opt out" of paying, knowing full well that their neighbors will foot the bill?

deMolay, ever heard of the free rider problem?

[FairMaiden]

Thank you Tyler for your points. I'm sure DeMolay drives his vehicle on paved roads and thinks nothing about the costs of acquistion (appropriated land) and maintenance. Let someone else pay for it - he should be given a free pass.

The "state" are not the farmers - they farmers are the rich corporations who run the gov and give you impression that you have a voice.

The pension problem is that you are comparing apples and oranges. I work for the provincial gov't here in Canada. I make $5k/year less than I did in private sector. I also pay $600/mo to the pension fund which the private sector does NOT pay. I am forced to pay this whether I like it or not. I'm not eligible for retirement till I'm 65...I will receive $20K per year upon retirement. I just ran a private investment calculator and it tells me that I only need to put $185/mo for that kind of yearly retirement...(note: I have a bit of private RRSP as well and that's included)...so how am I getting a deal here? I'm not. I'm paying for the poor financial decisions of the pension fund managers and I don't have a say about any of it. I'm also paying for the ppl who get to retire at 45 and have jacked up their last 5 years of earning to get more than their fair share. Close those loopholes - but don't take about "luxury" pensions bc MOST gov't employees don't see that. At least not those of us in the middle/bottom!!

I only switched bc I was tired of the downtown commute and gov't services is the biggest industry in my area...so for my sanity/extra time with kids is worth it...

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'C')ome if you must Pretorian, I will surely make you welcome. But in the meantime, do you not pay TAXES? Do you not rent your property back off the Human Tax Farm Owner? You see that is the source of the evil.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') getting a deal here? I'm not.

[deMolay]

Pretorian you scare no one least of all me. If I can run off a black bear, I am sure I can run off a blowhard like yourself. Like I said, I will make you welcome. The source of the Problem is "Property Taxes." Property Taxes should be outlawed. FairMaiden up the list mewls about her great contribution to her Provincial Pension. Well miss mewl, I have news for you. Canada is broke as well. And per capita we are further in the hole than the USA. If you live in Ontario for example, Ontario's Total Public Debt is North of 310B Dollars. Your pension is most likely unfunded and you will never be paid. Property Taxes should be completely banned. Property Taxes are a relic of the past, and are part of the old European Feudal system. They were instituted at the time the Feudal system was being dismantled, and folks began to own their own homes versus the Crown or King etc. Today tho we now pay more in Taxes than we have left for Food, Clothing and Housing combined. The money is just being squandered to pay for civil servant wages and pensions. When what we really need to do, and very soon. Is end as many programs as we can immediately and cut all civil servant staff by 25% across the board. Get them off the peoples backs. Let them fend for themselves. As for the necessity of cops, give me a break. I take care of myself and even if I did call a cop, he probably would show up a day later anyway. That is why loudmouths like Pretorian would probably not make it very far here. He is a bedpisser like Fair Maiden. When austerity is finally forced on Canada and the US in 2011. Remember my words.

[Revi]

The worst thing is that they cut services like police and fire and at the same time jack up the property taxes because there are fewer and fewer people to pay them. That's the reason that Detroit and places like that are not being re-inhabited by families. It isn't safe, and it isn't cheap to live there either.

I think we are looking at a much less kind and gentle America.

By the way I think Pretorian's rant was offensive also DeMolay. No need to threaten anyone on this forum. To alert moderators, click on the red asterisk. Eastbay.

[FairMaiden]

DeMolay - I wasn't mewling or whatever...I was just pointing out that public pension plans are not these great luxury benefits. They are paid for by the employees. As I pointed out, I will pay more than 3x what my pension will be worth. Of course, I'm not complaining bc I get to work in my community (I believe I ended with that but you will clearly read what you want/what validates your point). The problem is not the public penions - it's that the public won't put the equivalent $185 away and when they have nothing and we have something (if it lasts that is)...they will complain that's it's all taxpayer's money instead of allocated wages.

Property taxes are completely fine. If you don't want to pay them - then move to the Reserve.

In Canada we have less of a problem bc we operate like a 3rd world country. Sell our natural resources and buy back finished products.

You sound bitter - is the 'history of your enslavement' that new to you? That's old news. As long as we are well fed and have a decent roof over our heads, we don't really care...bc what's the alternative...

[deMolay]

Fair Maiden, I am not bitter in the least. I have prepared as well as possible and have 6 different income streams coming in, all pretty much unrelated to each other. You and Pretorian remind me of the Squid Billies. As to pensions being the real problem. I refer you again to this site documenting civil servant and public employee pensions. These are the real fat cats that are bankrupting the EU as well as Canada and the USA. Open the spread sheets, they are the actual pensions of firefighters, cops and unionized labour union members working for the city of Chicago and are typical for all of North America. Only the identity of the people collecting the pensions has been protected by substituting their initials for their real names. http://www.illinoisisbroke.com/pensionmillionaires.aspx

[deMolay]

Pension Armageddon in Pittsburgh. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... state.html

[IsThisRealLife]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '.')..If houses A, B and D pay for police patrols, house C still enjoys protection.

[IsThisRealLife]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', '.')..actual pensions of firefighters, cops and unionized labour union members working for the city of Chicago...

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IsThisRealLife', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '.')..If houses A, B and D pay for police patrols, house C still enjoys protection.

[IsThisRealLife]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')f my half of the street pays for police patrols, how am I supposed to exclude your half of the street from enjoying police protection?

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'P')retorian you scare no one least of all me. If I can run off a black bear, I am sure I can run off a blowhard like yourself. Like I said, I will make you welcome. The source of the Problem is "Property Taxes." Property Taxes should be outlawed.

[deMolay]

Like I expected, you are climbing back down from your personal threats against me. Because you are a blowhard and I recognised that about you right away. As to senility, you really need to look in the mirror. You have bigger issues than mere senility. deleted

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'L')ike I expected, you are climbing back down from your personal threats against me. Because you are a blowhard and I recognised that about you right away. As to senility, you really need to look in the mirror. You have bigger issues than mere senility. deleted

[deMolay]

Pretorian, I see that you have deleted the post were you threatened me. Just like I called you. A gutless BLOWHARD. Because that is all you have going for yourself. Except in my case it won't work. I don't run and I don't hide. Live up to your threat, bring it, I will welcome you. You forgot to get rid of the post of someone else that picked up on your threats. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ecember 29th, 2010, 7:17 pm

The worst thing is that they cut services like police and fire and at the same time jack up the property taxes because there are fewer and fewer people to pay them. That's the reason that Detroit and places like that are not being re-inhabited by families. It isn't safe, and it isn't cheap to live there either.

I think we are looking at a much less kind and gentle America.

By the way I think Pretorian's rant was offensive also DeMolay. No need to threaten anyone on this forum. To alert moderators, click on the red asterisk. Eastbay.

[mattduke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his coastal city next month will begin an aggressive campaign to warn residents of severe budget cuts that lie ahead, as the cash-strapped town tries to avert insolvency.

Laura Snideman, appointed earlier this month as Half Moon Bay's city manager, says she and the five-member city council and top managers will meet in the next few weeks with residents to alert them about impending changes, such as potentially outsourcing the town's 15-person police department to an outside agency.

The financial troubles of Half Moon Bay have made the coastal city a poster child for the problems plaguing Bay Area municipalities.

The city has planned as many as a dozen meetings and will have a town hall gathering at the end of January, says Ms. Snideman. She adds that Half Moon Bay hasn't embarked on such an aggressive public outreach before and plans to walk residents through the city budget to show where cuts need to come from.

"The choices are no longer hard, they're painful," says Ms. Snideman, formerly an economic development manager in the city of San Mateo. She adds that she hopes by making the case for cuts, some residents will offer ideas or even volunteer to save some services and programs.

The campaign is the latest development in Half Moon Bay's long and winding financial descent, which has made it a poster child of the problems plaguing Bay Area municipalities. While many towns face budget gaps, Half Moon Bay is in especially tough straits. The city already has outsourced some public-works services, including trash, building inspection and health-code enforcement to independent contractors and private companies.

The city of 13,000 is essentially "turning into a functionally unincorporated locale," says Christopher Thornberg, a principal at consultancy Beacon Economics in San Rafael. "They're pretty much a city in name only, having turned over or outsourced most of their essential services."

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', ' ')To alert moderators, click on the red asterisk. Eastbay.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'P')retorian, I see that you have deleted the post were you threatened me. Just like I called you. A gutless BLOWHARD. Because that is all you have going for yourself. Except in my case it won't work. I don't run and I don't hide. Live up to your threat, bring it, I will welcome you. You forgot to get rid of the post of someone else that picked up on your threats. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ecember 29th, 2010, 7:17 pm

The worst thing is that they cut services like police and fire and at the same time jack up the property taxes because there are fewer and fewer people to pay them. That's the reason that Detroit and places like that are not being re-inhabited by families. It isn't safe, and it isn't cheap to live there either.

I think we are looking at a much less kind and gentle America.

By the way I think Pretorian's rant was offensive also DeMolay. No need to threaten anyone on this forum. To alert moderators, click on the red asterisk. Eastbay.