[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09-', '
')
Ludi:
There are things as efficient as oil. It's what Monte speaks of call scalability that's the main problem.

[JudoCow09]

ANd fire produces heat and heat is energy, not to mention the reaction itself is creating energy(which is probably the heat). Yep, no energy there.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', '
')
To which I would say go read up on hydrogen storage, or look at the curve of battery density (power/weight or power/volume) over the last few years. And then read up on 'alternative energy' deployment over the past few years, multiply it out by the factor required to offset the ASPO decline curve, and see if it really seems so hard (caveat, next 35 years is my standard figure)

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')es, scalability. A property of oil. That's why we're talking about peak oil, not peak energy.

[JudoCow09]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, scalability. A property of oil. That's why we're talking about peak oil, not peak energy.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09-', 'L')udi:
There are things as efficient as oil. It's what Monte speaks of call scalability that's the main problem. Of course, I don't think any species has exploited energy. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing most of the things were food, land, grass, water, or things along that line. They are all indirectly energy but not the same as our kind. Monte, can you give me several examples of species that have gone into overshoot and then experienced a die-off? I'm not challenging the Law, I was just wondering.

[Jaymax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', ' ')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')e are talking about a species discovering a heretofore unexploited and previously unaccessible resource

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, scalability. A property of oil. That's why we're talking about peak oil, not peak energy.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', 'I')n any case, you know prefectly well that I was addressing. Something about expanding the niche. "heretofore unexploited and previously unaccessible resource" - eg: flaming wood - not wood for building, burning wood.

[JudoCow09]

Well, the end of vegies wouldn't knock out humans. Put it this way.

Cheap Energy is a component of Energy

Dairy products are a component of Food

Hmmm....

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', 'S')omething about expanding the niche. "heretofore unexploited and previously unaccessible resource" - eg: flaming wood - not wood for building, burning wood.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', ' ')But that is the problem, isn't it? Energy? Sure, the energy comes from oil, and it's convient that way, but the problem is energy, is it not?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', ' ')In any case, you know prefectly well that I was addressing. Something about expanding the niche. "heretofore unexploited and previously unaccessible resource" - eg: flaming wood - not wood for building, burning wood.

Of course, if you want to change the definition, go ahead.

I've unfortunatly decided which of the two 'scenarios' I set out previously you fit. Shame. Still open to you setting out those terms...

--J

[Jaymax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', 'A')nd then read up on 'alternative energy' deployment over the past few years, multiply it out by the factor required to offset the ASPO decline curve, and see if it really seems so hard (caveat, next 35 years is my standard figure)

[MonteQuest]

Some clarity:

A heretofore unexploited and previously inaccessible resource is food.

Humans use energy to create food.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', 'L')oads of stuff

[JudoCow09]

I'll wait to argue until you refine that last post.

Please explain to me how food was once unaccessible. I don't recall food ever being unacessible. If it was, then NO SPECIES would exist. We'd all be dead. Unless, of course, you're talking about 4.6 billion years ago and that we'll all die now 4.6 billion years later in a matter of decades.

And by the way, we don't know what the world population could have been without oil. We have only shortly inhabited, oh I don't know, half the planet recently. Population was growing before oil came along, It just boosted us. Just to say.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', 'P')lease explain to me how food was once unaccessible. I don't recall food ever being unacessible.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', 'I')'ll wait to argue until you refine that last post.

Please explain to me how food was once unaccessible. I don't recall food ever being unacessible. If it was, then NO SPECIES would exist. We'd all be dead. Unless, of course, you're talking about 4.6 billion years ago and that we'll all die now 4.6 billion years later in a matter of decades.

And by the way, we don't know what the world population could have been without oil. We have only shortly inhabited, oh I don't know, half the planet recently. Population was growing before oil came along, It just boosted us. Just to say.

[JudoCow09]

Forget it. Even in the most obvious case that you seem wrong, you still are convinced you're right. Forget that. We don't need a debate on something pointless.

And just so you know, I would have less faith in technology if every week or two I didn't hear about some improvement. Blind pessimist. Tsk tsk.