Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

It's all about trust

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Narz » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 10:10:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')s there somebody else's new paradigm they're interested in, then?

Not especially. It's funny, I really like permaculture's philosophy & I also really liked the book Ishmael when I read it (which seems to have had a large effect on Ludi) but her (and many other's here) flippant disdain/contraryness towards technology, towards the idea that growth isn't ALL bad, it's just... well, worse than useless, because it drives people away & keeps people with alot of good things to say & necessary things to point out isolated.

Similar to MonteQuest's attitude really. Alot of knowledge that will be wasted because no one's going to listen to a person who suggests stuff like (I paraphrase) "the death rate must be increased, one way is by drastically raising the highway speed limit" & questioning whether it's a good idea for old people to be treated for heart attacks.

Like Ludi he's a hypocrite though because he was happy to see Aaron saved after a medical emergency, pointing out the probably of "increasing the death rate", it's easy to want to do so when the "dier" is a randoms stranger, not so much when it's a friend or family member. Ludi thinks "power down" is the answer but pays for medical insurance (I'm assuming she's not paying a witchdoctor who works by candlelight).

Agriculture is wrong/a big mistake/we need to move past it? But how can people outside rural areas live without it? Answer they can't. But according to her version of permaculture cities above 2,000 (or maybe 3000, can't remember the arbitrary #) should be disbanded or something.

WTF is "the" new paradigm? Hunkering down & growing a food forest on your 5th floor tenement window sill? I mean, this sh!t is insulting. You and I can see the value in conversation & the simple live to some degree but to the public this is "going back to the stone age" and it's not going to happen in a million years so saying it should & attacking those with technological mitgation ideas/plans is just stupid & isolating.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
User avatar
Narz
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sat 25 Nov 2006, 04:00:00
Location: the belly of the beast (New Jersey)
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 12:48:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Is there somebody else's new paradigm they're interested in, then?



Seems like there was moderate interest in the Zeitgeist/Venus Project paradigm, but then it faded.
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 12:53:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 's')tuff about me


Odd this thread turned into a personal attack on me, and most of it false, too, for that matter. :?:
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 13:59:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')WTF is "the" new paradigm? Hunkering down & growing a food forest on your 5th floor tenement window sill? I mean, this sh!t is insulting. You and I can see the value in conversation & the simple live to some degree but to the public this is "going back to the stone age" and it's not going to happen in a million years so saying it should & attacking those with technological mitgation ideas/plans is just stupid & isolating.


Then what would you like us to advocate instead? Are you now a believer in the Zeitgeist project?

I've spent 6+ years fishing for something I can back, and I can't back anything without raising the specter of "What about people in this situation? They'll be left out!". Utopia can't work. There will always be some people dying for one unfair reason or another somewhere, as there is right now even as the basics of life is still dirt cheap to the developed world.
mos6507
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 14:38:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')"What about people in this situation? They'll be left out!".



Discuss options for cities: options-for-cities-t61161.html
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Narz » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 17:05:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 's')tuff about me


Odd this thread turned into a personal attack on me, and most of it false, too, for that matter. :?:

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, feel free to make corrections. You're probably a fine human being, I just don't like the way you come across on this forum.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')hen what would you like us to advocate instead?

New urbanism, perming out pretty much every landscape we can. Pretty much all the things we already advocate but without all the anti-civilization/technology stuff (all the while benefiting from it).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'A')re you now a believer in the Zeitgeist project?

Not really. They seem pretty fanciful too.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')'ve spent 6+ years fishing for something I can back, and I can't back anything without raising the specter of "What about people in this situation? They'll be left out!". Utopia can't work. There will always be some people dying for one unfair reason or another somewhere, as there is right now even as the basics of life is still dirt cheap to the developed world.
I guess that's why the Transition Towns are a good idea, they're trying to take care of themselves. It's hard to get motivated to take care of yourself & yourself alone but taking care of the whole world is daunting (especially when the world wants no part of your ideas) but if you can get 10-1000 motivated individuals together to try to sustainably take care of each other... well, that's pretty much my goal in life.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Discuss options for cities: options-for-cities-t61161.html
Thanks, will check it out.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
User avatar
Narz
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sat 25 Nov 2006, 04:00:00
Location: the belly of the beast (New Jersey)
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 18:38:58

Ok, here's some correction:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') also really liked the book Ishmael when I read it (which seems to have had a large effect on Ludi)


"Ishmael" hadn't a very large effect on me, it was essentially preaching to the choir as far as I'm personally concerned. I link to Daniel Quinn's writings a lot because he is a better writer than I am and has already said things a lot better than I could have. Unfortunately he is pretty thoroughly misunderstood also. He is not a primitivist, he is not a luddite. I'm neither of those things either.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'b')ut her (and many other's here) flippant disdain/contraryness towards technology


I am not disdainful nor contrary toward technology. I like it fine and have said so repeatedly. In fact, in my opinion humans can't be humans without technology. I don't know how I can have made it more plain than that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')worse than useless, because it drives people away & keeps people with alot of good things to say & necessary things to point out isolated.


Many people have thanked me for my contributions to this messageboard and for encouraging them and providing useful information.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')imilar to MonteQuest's attitude really.


Montequest and I had little in common and did not agree.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'L')udi thinks "power down" is the answer but pays for medical insurance

I'm not convinced its hypocritical to want to stay alive. I don't argue for killing people or not providing medical care to people who need it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')ut according to her version of permaculture cities above 2,000 (or maybe 3000, can't remember the arbitrary #) should be disbanded or something.

False. I have never said cities should be "disbanded," to my knowledge. If I did say so, please find the quote and I will retract it. I have likely said somewhere that very large cities may not be sustainable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'W')TF is "the" new paradigm?

I don't think there is "the" new paradigm and I have never personally argued for "the" new paradigm. I have repeatedly said that people should live where they feel most comfortable and that there is no one right way to live.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') mean, this sh!t is insulting.

Yes, what you are saying about me is very insulting.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 't')o the public this is "going back to the stone age"

I have endeavored for several years to communicate clearly on this messageboard. I have repeatedly clarified misunderstandings about my positions. That you insist on apparently deliberately misunderstanding me is unfortunate. But it is not helping things to personally attack and insult me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'a')nd it's not going to happen in a million years so saying it should & attacking those with technological mitgation ideas/plans is just stupid & isolating.

There is a lot of attacking going on here but it is not coming from me.
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 18:51:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')I just don't like the way you come across on this forum.


I don't like the way you come across either, which is why I have you on "ignore" and rarely read your posts.

If you made more positive contributions of useful information and spent less time insulting me (or anyone else), I would probably like your posts better.

In fact, it is the above kind of post, full of misunderstanding and insults which you claim not to mean in a hurtful way, which has inclined me to put you on ignore. Posting insulting and hurtful remarks repeatedly and then claiming you didn't mean to be hurtful, doesn't work more than once or twice. This is at least the second time and I'm not buying the "I didn't mean it" part. I'm pretty darn sure you meant it.

I guess it all comes down to trust. :badgrin:
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 21:07:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Similar to MonteQuest's attitude really. he's a hypocrite though because he was happy to see Aaron saved after a medical emergency, pointing out the probably of "increasing the death rate", it's easy to want to do so when the "dier" is a randoms stranger, not so much when it's a friend or family member.


Wrong. Not a hypocrite. He was just demonstrating the inherent moral dilemma in times of overshoot. Humanity as a whole would be best served by an increase of the death rate to correct overshoot but each individual human known is sacred.

The split between the individual human and humanity as a whole is the central moral paradox when applied to mitigating overshoot. No one has really been able to satisfactorily resolve this paradox because it is a paradox. You (humans) can't resolve this.

A germ could.



'
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 21:13:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'H')umanity as a whole would be best served by an increase of the death rate to correct overshoot
'



The death rate automatically increases when the birth rate decreases.

Germany (as an example)

Birth rate: 8.3 births/1,000 population (2011 est.)

Death rate: 10.92 deaths/1,000 population (July 2011 est.)

http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/death_rate.html

Nobody is killing anyone or withholding medical care in Germany. :roll:
Ludi
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 21:33:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'H')umanity as a whole would be best served by an increase of the death rate to correct overshoot'

The death rate automatically increases when the birth rate decreases. Germany (as an example)

Birth rate: 8.3 births/1,000 population (2011 est.)

Death rate: 10.92 deaths/1,000 population (July 2011 est.) Death rate

Nobody is killing anyone or withholding medical care in Germany. :roll:

Ich habe zehn jahren in Deutschland gewont und meiner Krankenkasse ware echt ausgezeichnet. Translation: I lived 10 years in Germany and had excellent health care insurance. :)

Your point is valid to this thin slice of humanity you are referring to and the slice doesn't get much bigger if you go ahead and add Italy, Japan, Skandanavia, Australia and a few others. The slice may indeed grow bigger as more countries follow this trend. But something our old friend Montequest liked to remind us of when we brought forward these highly industrialized countries with zero or negative population growth was that these were the countries with the highest per capita energy consumption.

And since overshoot is a factor of numbers and consumption one could argue we really need to increase even faster the death rate in these zero population growth industrial countries just as fast as those poorer countries with high population growth.

You know, be democratic about it... egalitarian..... just fasten our seat belts and put the pedal to the metal and accelerate the death rate all around.

Along with germs earthquakes and tsunamis don't have this moral dilemma either.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby scas » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 22:09:22

Agree with what Ibon says....mostly. If we were 7 billion bio-char making vegans that grew beans and fasted then we could probably make a difference.

It would also be nice to have a leader with cojones. In every industrialized country.

And a cigar maybe, because he knows climate change will get him before the cancer.
scas
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue 02 Nov 2010, 06:39:52
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Narz » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 01:19:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')I just don't like the way you come across on this forum.


I don't like the way you come across either, which is why I have you on "ignore" and rarely read your posts.

So why did you take me off to reply?

If you made more positive contributions of useful information and spent less time insulting me (or anyone else), I would probably like your posts better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')n fact, it is the above kind of post, full of misunderstanding

Complaining about misunderstanding is a waste of energy, why not fix the problem instead of calling me a big bully?
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
User avatar
Narz
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sat 25 Nov 2006, 04:00:00
Location: the belly of the beast (New Jersey)
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby lizhuberx3 » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 05:35:40

Today's people don't know humanity. We all are living in the world of people who are selfish. 8O
lizhuberx3
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu 17 Mar 2011, 08:24:37
Location: United States
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby ian807 » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 09:09:15

Trust is a subtle issue.

Consider the meltdown of the nuclear power plants in Japan. I don't doubt that nuclear power plants using uranium and plutonium can be made safer, A lot safer, but here's the thing. There will always be economic motivation to cut corners and drop safety features for immediate profit. In the end, we can't trust the corruptible humans who build, or monitor, nuclear power plants.

The problems aren't technical. The problems are human. That's why nuclear power can never be safe. The engineering is good enough, but we're not good enough.
User avatar
ian807
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon 03 Nov 2008, 04:00:00
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 09:38:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'W')hy would I want to trust something Mos would trust?


What do you trust?


here are some good interviews -

http://www.financialsense.com/financial-sense-newshour

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/ ... dcast.html
http://www.LASIK-Flap.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
User avatar
pedalling_faster
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat 10 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 13:52:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I') wish I could be more eloquent in expressing this idea, but I realized some time ago that where you fall ideologically has a lot to do, if not EVERYTHING to do with trust. How much trust do you have, and in which institutions?


Well, trust just has to do with whether the person / institution is matching up to your expectations of them. My expectations are pretty realistic (low), so yeah I trust. :lol:

As a consumer, I expect that businesses I interact with are going to lie to me, misrepresent everything, and in general do everything they legally can to separate me from as much money as they can. Doesn't sound like trust, but because that's what I expect then technically it is trust.

So Mos, I don't even know what you're getting at here.. I guess it's the political angle, making a point about conservatives not trusting that government can do anything right. The conundrum here is that it's great when government gets something right, but when they screw it up then it's really really bad. Better to have a small government that does very little than a big government that screws everything up.

So if we could somehow make socialism work like it does in France, or even Canada, then I'm all for it. But I suspect we'd just screw it up and make things worse than the status quo. If given the option of bad government or small government, I'll take the latter.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oomers tend to skew tinfoil because they're trust in established institutions is shot.


I can say I trusted more before I joined this forum. Since then.. I've learned too much, and seen too much "tinfoil" become mainstream news.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]But where trust has failed almost universally now, is our trust in our financial institions, and to a slightly lesser extent, government which we hold accountable for the fate of the economy and the job market.


We've had a massive cultural breakdown in this country since 1980ish. I don't know what to pin that on, maybe the loss of religious faith and with it notions of common decency and some kind of morality. So yeah, things are gettin' bad..

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat the voting public would, perhaps, vote against its own interests by attacking government through sending tea-partiers to washington who will only further deregulate big businesses is besides the point.


Government has the force of law, whereas you have a choice whether to work for a particular corporation or buy from a particular business. So that's why some people fear government more than the private sector.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen you have the issue of trust in our support system. The BP spill, the string of natural disasters from maybe Katrina onward, the shakiness of the global grain market, the nuclear meltdown, all these events erode confidence in the system's resilience.

I think Watergate pretty much did it as far as public trust goes. Though actually Americans were just naive before that.. government and capitalist private enterprise have been lying through their teeth for a couple centuries now. But there is something different about our modern world, a more total breakdown of any semblance of trustworthiness.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm, something a little more than the simplistic anarchism-peddling I see here.

The institution you're speaking of is religious faith. Doesn't have to be Christianity, or American style evangelical Christianity.. could be buddhism, but we need *something*. I don't see that in the cards though so if things get too bad here, maybe the best thing a person could do is get the hell out and away to some other culture where people are more decent to each other. I've been wondering lately whether material poverty even matters.. if the culture is better, if there's trust, then maybe that's more important than how many McMansions and iPads people have.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 18:13:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')I can say I trusted more before I joined this forum. Since then.. I've learned too much, and seen too much "tinfoil" become mainstream news.


Like "Iran cable cut"?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Government has the force of law, whereas you have a choice whether to work for a particular corporation or buy from a particular business. So that's why some people fear government more than the private sector.


We haven't been exercising that choice. We've been shopping at Wal-Mart, because we care about price above all else.
mos6507
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 18:33:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')He was just demonstrating the inherent moral dilemma in times of overshoot.


The reason Montequest annoyed people is that he had nothing else to offer besides restating this dilemma ad nauseum.

What I come here for, and rarely receive, btw, is some semblance that there is a living breathing person on the other keyboard, someone who has their own hopes, dreams, fears, inspiration, and most important, empathy. I see a huge void of empathy in doomers, which is covered over with reference to "ecological paradigms" and what not. It's the whole Georgia Guidestones bean-counter mentality of clinical detachment in the numbers-game of carrying capacity. This is also why I let 'er rip with RangerOne a while back. Whenever I hear a lot of flippant "let's kill this group or that", it sets me off.

It's one thing to understand it's a dilemma, but give me some sense that you're actually conflicted about it, that you're griefing over it. Montequest never came across as conflicted, other than the fact that he was making raised beds for people. He came across as borderline psychotic.

The psychosis was the way he rarely if ever wrote in the 1st person or was willing to personally advocate anything. It was constantly quoting Catton and Al Bartlett, and he even mis-interpreted Al Bartlett to make his case for cutting cords, when the last major writing Bartlett did on the issue (for the Oil Drum) made it clear that he is NOT a cord-cutter, but believes in family-planning only.

Monte clearly didn't want to own up to his own ideology by hiding himself behind numbers and other people. I think if you support something, be a man and take credit for it. Don't try to shrink back behind a rock and pontificate in the 3rd person.
mos6507
 
Top

Re: It's all about trust

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 19 Mar 2011, 19:07:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Monte clearly didn't want to own up to his own ideology by hiding himself behind numbers and other people. I think if you support something, be a man and take credit for it. Don't try to shrink back behind a rock and pontificate in the 3rd person.


Monte's pathology (which I recognized) never bothered me. What he was relentlessly pointing out was more beneficial than his pathology detrimental. But it was more than that. His pathology had an edge that
awakened in folks their moral outrage which was where his logic would often force one, in spite of how much you hated him for his apparent cold, lack of empathy, to recognize a truth of the paradox we speak of around this moral dilemma. I never saw him lacking empathy. His failure was getting off topic accusing folks of ad hominen attacks against him and not able to let go of the fight until he dragged a thread into the ground. That was his downfall in my opinion. As predictable as a Pavlovian dog salivating when it came to dragging threads into the ground in these senseless conflicts. But I stand by my position that his ecological understanding of overshoot was impeccable as well as exposing aspects of this paradoxical moral dilemma. Genius and madness are often twin pillars and Montequest had a madness and persecution complex since his expertise confronted tabus that automatically excited people to argue with him which then took him down the toilet.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests



cron